Stay Classy Grievance Syndicate!

Posted by Bob Stone

Ferguson Protesters Erupt Outside Police Department: ‘What Do We Want? Darren Wilson! How Do We Want Him? Dead!’

Protesters in Ferguson, Mo., have taken to the streets and chosen not to wait for a grand jury’s decision before clashing with police once again. A grand jury is expected to decide whether to indict police officer Darren Wilson, who is accused of shooting 18-year-old Michael Brown, in the coming days. But protesters made their voices heard outside the Ferguson Police Department on Thursday night shouting, “What do we want? Darren Wilson! How do we want him? Dead!”  (Click here for full story and lovely videos)

And…

Mob Teaches Children Cops are Pigs

On Thursday, [Superintendent Tiffany Anderson] said a group of adults wearing masks and claiming to be from Chicago were passing out fliers to students as they walked home along Cozens Avenue. The street has an elementary school, the junior high and high school.

The fliers were “encouraging students to be disruptive and encouraging them to think of police as pigs,” Anderson said. “That was disturbing.”

Anderson notified other school districts in north St. Louis County about the fliers. A scanned copy urges people “to pour into the streets immediately” after the announcement comes. It also says “Students should walk out of school when they hear another murdering pig has gone free.” (More)

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195 Responses to Stay Classy Grievance Syndicate!

  1. Elaine M. says:

    Bob,

    Who do you suppose is behind that “group from Chicago?” I think it would be interesting to find out…don’t you?

  2. Elaine M. says:

    What a mob! Get the National Guard and tanks and tear gas!

    More arrests as protesters await Ferguson grand jury decision
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/21/us-usa-missouri-shooting-idUSKCN0J506920141121

    Excerpt:
    (Reuters) – Riot police arrested at least two demonstrators in Ferguson, Missouri, for a second night running as tensions simmer ahead of a grand jury decision in the case of a white officer who shot dead an unarmed black teenager in August.

    The grand jury is deciding whether to charge officer Darren Wilson in the slaying of 18-year-old Michael Brown in the St. Louis suburb in a case that has exposed fresh strains in often-troubled race relations in the United States.

    About a dozen protesters gathered again outside the police station in Ferguson in frigid conditions, sometimes blocking vehicles as they waved placards and chanted “Whose streets? Our streets!” and “Killer cops have got to go!”

  3. Elaine M. says:

    Bob,

    Is “misguidedchildren.com” a reliable news source? I’ve never heard of it before.

  4. Bob Stone says:

    They have the hand out scan; that’s what I found interesting.

  5. buckaroo says:

    Why would any sane person chose to be a policemen in any section of a country where regardless of the degree of risk, you will be judge as an interloper regarding any and all decisions you shall make. I just can not comprehend any business person seeking to make a living in such an environment.

  6. Bob Kauten says:

    buckaroo,
    Exactly! Tell the White Citizens Council of Ferguson about it.
    Well, gotta go. I gotta go hide under the bed, so the “Grievance Syndicate,” the “Mob,” and “those animals” can’t find me!
    Black people terrify me!

  7. blouise says:

    Wow! Twelve demonstrators and the police arrested 2 of them. Can’t wait for Chief Jackson to report that 20% of the mob had to be arrested. Then he can requisition another armoured vehicle to transport them to wherever the Ferguson Police Department stores mob-stars.

    —————————————————————————————–
    Re the pamphlets:

    Does the KKK have a Chicago chapter? The fringes of American society have gathered on the scene to exploit it for their own agendas so this group could be just about anybody who has access to a copy machine.

  8. Bob Kauten says:

    Oops, forgot…Mother, May I?

  9. bigfatmike says:

    “They have the hand out scan; that’s what I found interesting.”

    So you presented this web site to alert us that some parties may be using the situation at Ferguson to raise funds for purposes that may or may not have anything to do with the issues at Ferguson? You did not present this web site because you though it was a reliable news site that was presenting important information about Ferguson. Did I get that right?

    Has anyone noticed that the web site misguidedchildren claims the fliers were handed out by communists: “The Communists urged students to “If the Murdering Pig Walks, Amerikkka must be brought to a Halt”

    Does it occur to anyone that perhaps both those handing out the fliers and those reporting on them such as sites like misguidedchildren may be fringe elements that have little to do with the important issues of Ferguson or the majority of people who are protesting?

  10. Bob Kauten says:

    Communists? What decade is this?
    Not Bolsheviks?

  11. bettykath says:

    The words on the flyers don’t ring true as from supporters of Mike Brown. More likely from some skinhead group trying to start trouble.

    • bigfatmike says:

      “The words on the flyers don’t ring true as from supporters of Mike Brown. More likely from some skinhead group trying to start trouble.”

      I think I have to agree this all has a sort of agent provocateur feel to it.

      Does anyone know anything at all about Revolutioninferguson@gmail.com?

      I am no big time activist. But in my experience groups trying to mobilize citizens for social change are usually very clear about how to contact them, sometimes with a real address, or a phone number – easy, anyone with a cell phone can do it, or a web site.

      A gmail account has to be one of the hardest details to trace and is likely beyond the ability of most any citizen outside law enforcement.

      I think the presentation suggest these people, who ever they may be, don’t want to be found.

      But that does not mean they will not cause trouble. A certain percent of the population is likely susceptible to their irrational call.

  12. Bob K.,

    You know what I heard?

    The only thing that might terrify you worse than black people is sarcasm.

    It must make it very awkward when you talk to yourself.

    :mrgreen:

  13. Bob Kauten says:

    Gene,
    And, worse, myself is the only person who understands me.

  14. Rotten apples who enjiy chaos; are some of the worst perpetrators. Such as the black mask goons trying to make Occupy WS look bad.

    It ain’t easy, getting justice against big sleazies!

  15. bigfatmike says:

    “The words on the flyers don’t ring true as from supporters of Mike Brown. More likely from some skinhead group trying to start trouble.”

    I think the flyer has the ring of something produced by agent provocateurs intent on inflaming the situation.

    Does anyone know who is behind RevolutioninFerguson@gmail.com?

    In my experience groups trying to mobilize citizens for change usually make it easy to find themselves.

    A blind gmail account has to be one of the hardest details to trace for anyone outside law enforcement.

    It does not look like these people want to be found. And that ought to raise questions about their motives and what they are trying to accomplish.

  16. bigfatmike says:

    “The words on the flyers don’t ring true as from supporters of Mike Brown. More likely from some skinhead group trying to start trouble.”

    I think the flyer has the ring of something produced by agent provocateurs intent on inflaming the situation.

    Does anyone know who is behind Revolutioninferguson @ gmail .com?

    In my experience groups trying to mobilize citizens for change usually make it easy to find themselves.

    A blind gmail account has to be one of the hardest details to trace for anyone outside law enforcement.

    It does not look like these people want to be found. And that ought to raise questions about their motives and what they are trying to accomplish.

  17. bigfatmike says:

    Who is behind Revolutioninferguson anyway.

  18. bigfatmike says:

    Do the people behind Revolutioninferguson want to be found?

    Why would a group trying to mobilize citizens for change try to hide who they are?

  19. bigfatmike says:

    Why would a group trying to mobilize citizens for change try to hide who they are?

  20. Slartibartfast says:

    Blouise said:
    Does the KKK have a Chicago chapter?

    Of course they do.

  21. pete says:

    The words on the flyers don’t ring true as from supporters of Mike Brown. More likely from some skinhead group trying to start trouble.
    =========================================================

    we seem to have misplaced our false flag expert.

  22. Bob Stone says:

    False flag…

    Jesus H. Christ

  23. bigfatmike says:

    Some might notice that I have several repetitive posts here. My apologizes. This occurred when my remarks seemed to have been rejected, perhaps by the spam filter, and I made additional attempts.

    I suppose the lesson for me is to be patient and only post again after some reasonable period of time.

  24. blouise says:

    Slarti,

    Brings back memories of my youth. Been there and done that and it was most satisfying. Is it no wonder that I had to be sent back twice for more non-violent training. (The group we plowed through all were wearing sheets) Of course, ahem, I’m not the least bit proud of meeting violence with violence for taking pride in such mob-like behavior would be very wrong.

  25. Slartibartfast says:

    Blouise,

    I’m sure you behaved like a lady at all times. 😉

    Bob,

    Well, Officer Wilson’s apologists have set the bar pretty high. After all, the Klan adds that touch of sophistication to any endeavor and the obvious bias of the police chief and prosecutor puts the integrity of the process beyond reproach. Which is good since you’ve made it clear that questioning whether or not justice is being served by an investigation which has the appearance of impropriety is a violation of Officer Wilson’s due process rights not to mention that Mr. Brown apparently has no due process rights or entitlement to justice and no one has the right to protest perceived inequities either.

    Yes, clearly the “grievance syndicate”* has no right to complain about inequities in the killing of Mr. Brown and the investigation of Officer Wilson. I guess they’re just getting “uppity” as the Wilson apologists from the Klan might say.

    * Which seems to include anyone who so much as questions the official story—we can’t jump to any conclusion that doesn’t exonerate Officer Wilson without being lumped in with extremists, after all.

  26. Elaine M. says:

    Activist’s video suggests Ferguson police have been lying about Mike Brown’s death
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/activists-video-suggests-ferguson-police-have-been-lying-about-mike-browns-death/

    Excerpt:
    An activist claims that police in Ferguson, Missouri have deliberately misled the public about the distance between Darren Wilson’s department-issued SUV — where his confrontation with Michael Brown began — and the location of Brown’s body.

    Police claimed — and the media repeatedly reported — that Brown was killed 35 feet from Wilson’s SUV, a distance at which police can reasonably be said to be in fear for their lives. But according to visual evidence from the day of the shooting and an on-site measurement based upon it, Shaun King contends that Brown was approximately 148 feet from the door of Wilson’s SUV when he died.

    “The arc of their initial story, magnified in importance by the absence of even one official report, is that Darren Wilson shot and killed a young man who, in a short distance from the SUV, posed him grave harm,” King writes. “How far Mike Brown actually fled, how far Darren Wilson chased him, and where each of them were in relation to each other and to the SUV, are facts of paramount importance.”

    Moreover, he continues, if “Brown fled over 100 feet away from Darren Wilson, it clearly suggests it Brown — unarmed, shot, missing a shoe, in lounge clothes — feared for his life and not the other way around.”

    The longer distance between Wilson and Brown would account for one of the more inexplicable facts about the shooting, as King noted earlier this year on Twitter:

    Shaun King @ShaunKing
    Follow
    Several officers wrote me days after the Mike Brown murder, stumped, as to how Darren Wilson missed so many shots @ such a close range.

  27. blouise17 says:

    Slarti,

    Well … Of course … or t least what passes for lady-like within the mob setting. I know Bob S. Is all for law and order and I respect that but honestly, based on my mob experiences, those protesters in Ferguson are a bunch of wusses. The front bumper of a ’62 Buick makes a lovely sound when connecting with a … bedsheet.

  28. Mike Spindell says:

    Another post in the continuing series about them “darkies” being influenced by outside agitators. This is just what George Wallace complained about those many years ago in Alabama. Nothing to see here folks, just the underdog police being unfairly attacked again.

  29. bigfatmike says:

    “Several officers wrote me days after the Mike Brown murder, stumped, as to how Darren Wilson missed so many shots @ such a close range.”

    The distance between Brown and the SUV may be an important point.

    But we should remember that the distance between Brown and the SUV is not necessarily the distance between Brown and Wilson when the fatal shots were fired.

    Further, what ever the distance, it is widely accepted that even well trained personnel are not nearly as effective or accurate in real combat situations when lives are on the line.

    We should remember the incident vicinity of the Empire State building in which two NYCLE engaged a gunman, fired 16 times and injured 9 bystanders. Only three(!!!) were hit by direct gunfire – but still. Or consider the case of Amadou Diallo who was fired on 41 times by 4 NYCLE. Diallo was only hit 19 times our of 41 shots fired – these officers were close enough to be speaking to Diallo and demanding his ID. These are only two incidents. With a little googling we could probably spend the rest of the day dredging up similar incidents.

    I don’t think accuracy of aimed fire tells us much about the incident.

    However, distance between the shooter and the victim might indicate something important about the reasonableness of belief there was an imminent threat to life. And in my view any attempt to obfuscate facts about the distance between the shooter and the victim would be evidence of interference with an objective investigation – do we dare use the term obstruction?

  30. bettykath says:

    BFM, “However, distance between the shooter and the victim might indicate something important about the reasonableness of belief there was an imminent threat to life.
    And in my view any attempt to obfuscate facts about the distance between the shooter and the victim would be evidence of interference with an objective investigation – do we dare use the term obstruction?”

    I agree that the distance between the shooter and the victim is important. The police chief said that the distance from the car to Mike was about 35 feet, therefore it is reasonable to assume that the distance between them something less than that. However, once the real distance is determined to be 4 times that we don’t know how far away they were from each other. Since the chief felt the need to lie, I suspect that the distance between them when the shots were fired were such that the only danger was to Mike Brown. Obstruction? oh, yes. If the chief can’t tell the difference between 35 feet and 140 feet, he needs to retire to a home, or go to jail for lying.

  31. eniobob says:

    let me add this to the mix which is going on as I type:

    “For a police officer, the stairwells of New York City’s public housing complexes can be menacing places of drug deals, domestic disputes, thievery and gang violence, where nerves can cause missteps that, in an instant, can end in tragedy.

    Darkness, inexperience and fear all seemed to have converged in a stairwell of the Louis H. Pink Houses in East New York, Brooklyn, late Thursday, when a bullet from a police officer’s gun killed an unarmed man who seemed to pose no more threat than a shadow in the night.

    The shooting underscored the perils and pitfalls of what the Police Department calls vertical patrols — routine up-and-down inspections of stairwells and hallways that are meant to keep criminals at bay in the city’s 334 public housing developments. But the patrols can also ensnare workaday residents simply trying to get

    Late Thursday night in this dim stairwell of a Brooklyn housing project, Officer Peter Liang accidentally killed Akai Gurley, 28.Officer’s Errant Shot Kills Unarmed Brooklyn Man NOV. 21, 2014
    Police officers conduct a top-to-bottom patrol in the Pink Houses in Brooklyn. The city’s 334 housing projects have 2,000 police officers assigned to them.Policing the Projects of New York City,
    The fatal encounter is being investigated both by the Brooklyn district attorney’s office and the Police Department’s Internal Affairs Bureau. And Police Commissioner William J. Bratton said on Friday that the department would review its policies “to see if there is anything we can learn.” Still, he insisted that vertical patrols were “an essential part of policing.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/22/nyregion/new-york-police-officer-fatally-shoots-brooklyn-man.html?_r=0

  32. Bob Stone says:

    Stay Classy!

    Smerconish: I want to see the testimony of witnesses under oath in front of that grand jury. And I want to know the police officer’s account because we haven’t even heard it.

    Bassem Masri: I can believe what I wanna believe. I don’t care what any of em got to say. I know what happened. Darren Wilson did not have to execute anybody….

  33. Elaine M. says:

    Bob,

    And no supporters of Darren Wilson have assumed that Michael Brown was guilty of committing an act for which he deserved to be shot and killed?

  34. Bob Stone says:

    Sorry Elaine, but this guy is the archetype of the Ferguson protester:

    “I don’t care what any of em got to say. I know what happened.”

  35. Elaine M. says:

    Bob,

    You’re familiar with the Ferguson protesters? How many of them have you met and spoken with?

  36. blouise17 says:

    Oh come on, Bob. That guy is no more the archetype of a Ferguson protester than the KKK is of a police supporter. Fringe freaks trying to get 15 minutes of fame.

  37. Bob Stone says:

    I beg to differ. He’s made himself known since day one.

    But what makes him the archetype is his method of dealing with any cognitive dissonance.

    “I don’t care what any of em got to say. I know what happened.”

  38. Bob Stone says:

    You know; arrest Darren Wilson. We don’t care about any grand jury. We know what happened. Wilson executed that kid, etc., etc.

  39. Elaine M. says:

    CNN interview gets testy over Ferguson protests

  40. Bob Stone says:

    Gee, that video looks familiar.

  41. Elaine M. says:

    Bob,

    I’ve been busy over at the Bill Cosby thread. I read your earlier comment and glanced at the video–which I had thought was just a picture. My bad!

  42. blouise17 says:

    Bob,

    I know what you are illuminating but these fringe freaks jumped on the bandwagon as soon as the media’s ticket office opened. The media needs ‘ em to keep the story going now that all the real players have hired lawyers and gone to ground.

    I wonder how many grand jurors have secret book deals in the works.

  43. Slartibartfast says:

    Blouise,

    You should know by now that jumping to a conclusion is only bad if you jump to the wrong conclusion. If you wish to agree with anything that puts Officer Wilson in a good light, that’s perfectly all right. And remember that the stuff the Klan says is totally different than the kind of over-the-top rhetoric used by Michael Brown supporters.

  44. blouise says:

    Slarti,

    Of course you are right regarding the rhetoric but so many of these “hey, give me a microphone” folk aren’t there to support anyone but themselves. It’s the American way. There’s money to be made, get thee hence.

    Once the grand jury releases it’s decision, the real players will return to the field and the freaks will be back on the fringes counting their pennies.

    I was quite serious about grand jurors and book deals.

  45. Slartibartfast says:

    Blouise,

    Only grand jurors without book deals would surprise me.

    I seem to be having some kind of recurring fantasy regarding bedsheets in the headlights and the overdrive kicking in…

    Bron,

    I saw that when I went looking for the Blues Brothers clip. Very funny!

  46. blouise17 says:

    Slarti,

    Thunk is the satisfying sound … then drive like hell. And, of course, better to show contrition than ask permission

  47. blouise says:

    “Whenever the decision does come, the response — whatever form it takes — will be of a different nature than the spontaneous protests that followed the Aug. 9 shooting. In this case, there has been plenty of advanced planning time. That has allowed protest leaders and police to draw up some rules of engagement that could keep a cap on tensions. .. ‘.We’ve had since August to improve communication with the community, with protesters, so things can look different this time around,’ St. Louis City Police Chief Sam Dotson said. …Copwatch has distributed 210 cameras to watchers in the neighborhood, using donated funds, and has trained the citizen witnesses both how to use the technology and what their rights are when encountering police”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/st-louis-area-braces-for-aftershock-of-ferguson-shooting-grand-jury-decision/2014/11/22/f0615786-7263-11e4-ad12-3734c461eab6_story.html

  48. Elaine M. says:

    Grand jury evidence may not be released
    http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/11/23/grand-jury-evidence-may-not-be-released/19458257/

    Excerpt:
    In an interview on September 28, Bob McCulloch said the judge agreed that the records would be made public, if there is no indictment.

    “If there is not an indictment returned in any case, then the case is closed and the records are closed. Unless the judge orders that they be opened. So in this case, we have asked the judge if there is no indictment returned, and no charge on anything, we have asked the judge, and she has agreed, that the records will be made public,” McCulloch said.

    Sunday, the St. Louis County Director of Judicial Administration, Paul Fox, released a statement saying that St. Louis Judge Whittington has entered no such order, or made no such agreement.

    The statement says if the Grand Jury records are released, the court would have to analyze them, “The Court had done no such analysis.”

  49. Elaine M. says:

    12-year-old boy shot by Cleveland police has died
    By Cory Shaffer | Northeast Ohio Media
    November 23, 2014
    http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/12-year-old_boy_shot_by_clevel.html#incart_story_package

    Excerpt:
    CLEVELAND, Ohio — The 12-year-old boy wielding what turned out to be a BB gun when he was shot by police outside a Cleveland recreation center died early Sunday morning, a police union official confirmed.

    The boy, whose name has not been officially released, was shot in the stomach at Cudell Recreation Center, at Detroit Avenue and West Boulevard, about 3:30 p.m. Saturday, police said.

    He was taken to MetroHealth Medical Center in serious condition, EMS officials said. Throughout the night his condition deteriorated and he died early Sunday, Cleveland Police Patrolmen’s Association president Jeff Follmer said.

    The shooting came after a man at the park adjacent to the rec center called police when he saw “a guy with a gun pointing it at people.”

    The caller twice said the gun was “probably fake” and told dispatchers the person pulling the gun from his waistband was “probably a juvenile,” according to audio released by police officials late Saturday…

    The caller’s doubt was never relayed to the responding officers – one in his first year on the force, and the other with at least a decade of experience, Follmer said.

    The rookie officer saw the boy at a park bench pick up what looked like a gun and placed it in his waistband, Follmer said.

    The officer ordered the boy to put his hands in the air. Instead, police said, the boy reached for his gun. Deputy Chief Edward Tomba said the boy made no verbal threats to the officer and there was no physical confrontation.

  50. swarthmoremom says:

    That story is tragic, Elaine.

  51. swarthmoremom says:

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/23/us/ferguson-woman-kills-herself/ Woman is so afraid of the Ferguson protestors that she buys a gun and accidentally kills herself.

  52. Bob Stone says:

    Elaine,

    What logical connection do you see between a 12 year old kid getting shot accidentally by police and the Wilson/Brown incident?

    I’m keen to guess.

  53. Mike Spindell says:

    Um Bob, perhaps both people deserved it because they didn’t listen to the saintly police officers orders. People have to learn not to disobey legal authority…….or we’ll have………mobs.

  54. blouise says:

    Re grand jury evidence may not be released

    That McCulloch is something else. If there is no indictment, it’s the grand jury’s fault. If there is an indictment, it’s the grand jury’s fault. If no transcripts are released, it’s the Judge’s fault. McCulloch is the pluperfect politician responsible for nothing. I’m not at all sure why he collects a salary.

  55. Bob Stone says:

    Mike,

    Why did Crump hire Parcells?

  56. swarthmoremom says:

    Elaine,

    “What logical connection do you see between a 12 year old kid getting shot accidentally by police and the Wilson/Brown incident?

    I’m keen to guess.” There is a pattern which you obviously don’t see. I don’t know whether that is by design or by inability.

    • bigfatmike says:

      I believe we have allowed legitimate concerns for officer safety to turn well intentioned officers into trigger happy warriors that are a real threat to the communities they serve.

      Part of the problem is there is no real discussion of training and engagement standards. We allow a closed circle of experts to set training and engagement standards. Then when a tragedy occurs, that community determines that the officer was applying the standard and no action is taken.

      Citizens have to impress politicians that we must open the discussion of risk and tactics and make standards that achieve a better balance between safety and risk.

      The cost of not having this discussion will be more useless deaths – primarily among ethnic communities.

  57. Bob Stone says:

    SWM,

    So you believe the story Dorian Johnson told?

  58. blouise17 says:

    Anonymous has shut down the city’s website (Cleveland).

    Keep in mind we already have a Federal investigation going on as to whether or not Cleveland police officers are too quick to rely on deadly force.

    The slain boy’s family has retained a lawyer who is, as far as I can find out, reputable and handling all communications. He is quoted, “You have to look at this in the context that this is a 12-year-old boy, not a 35-year-old man with a criminal history. You can’t expect adult reactions out of children.”

  59. blouise17 says:

    Bob,

    The shooting wasn’t accidental. The shot was a center body mass kill shot.

    What needs to be determined is the judgement used.

  60. bron98 says:

    even as a hardcore supporter of the cops, I am starting to wonder if I would be alive today had the cops acted then as they do now. There were occasions as a 6th grader when I was only a couple of steps in front of an officer of the law yelling stop, stop. I had no intention of stopping but thankfully back then the cops kept their sidearms holstered when running after juvenile delinquents.

    But then back then most 6th graders werent packing and parents would spank your ass for messing around like that or give some other deserved punishment. I was in the doghouse for something or other until I wised up and learned that other people had rights too.

  61. Elaine M. says:

    Bob,

    I’m concerned about the number of officer-involved shootings and deaths of young men while in police custody that I’ve read about in recent months. I’ve written some posts on the subject.

    —–
    Regarding the Killing of John Crawford III in a Wal-Mart Store in Ohio: Should the Police Officer Who Shot Him Have Been Indicted?
    https://flowersforsocrates.com/2014/09/26/regarding-the-killing-of-john-crawford-iii-in-a-wal-mart-store-in-ohio-should-the-police-officer-who-shot-him-have-been-indicted/

    The Case of the “Houdini Handcuff Suicide”: Young Black Man Supposedly Shoots Himself in Back Seat of Police Cruiser in Louisiana (VIDEOS)
    https://flowersforsocrates.com/2014/09/29/the-case-of-the-houdini-handcuff-suicide-young-black-man-supposedly-shoots-himself-in-back-seat-of-police-cruiser-in-louisiana-videos/

    • bigfatmike says:

      I think Elaine raises two separate issues.

      The first has to do with standards for engagement that allow officers to use lethal force in situations where many of us believe the threat was minimal and lethal force a huge over reaction.

      The second issue has to do with authoritative and transparent investigation of situations and officer reports – sometimes when the situations and reports seem preposterous.

  62. blouise17 says:

    Thus far all we have are the recordings from dispatch wherein the citizen suggested the person with the gun might be a juvenile and the gun might be fake. The dispatch to the officers was simply “male with gun threatening …”

    There is a surveillance video which the police can’t as yet release as it is investigative material but aware that such things often leak, they offered a viewing of the tape to the family. The family declined but had a representative view it who will then tell them about it. The juvenile had no record according to Juvenile Court officials.

    Supposedly only the rookie fired his gun. The veteran officer did not. They were within 10 feet of the juvenile when the rookie cop shot him. There were other children in the park when the officer fired.

  63. Bob Stone says:

    Ferguson grand jury decision expected today
    By Josh Levs, CNN
    updated 1:40 PM EST, Mon November 24, 2014

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/24/justice/ferguson-grand-jury/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

  64. bigfatmike says:

    “So you believe the story Dorian Johnson told?”

    Again we have this simplistic question that does not help to understand the situation.

    Witnesses rarely get it exactly right in all the detail.

    The useful question is what part of his story seems to make sense and what parts are substantiated by other facts like physical evidence and other eye witness testimony.

    The fact is that much of Johnson’s remarks are completely consistent with Wilson’s story.

    If you make a blanket denial of Johnson’s story then you repudiate much of Wilson’s story as well.

    As I pointed out earlier, much of Johnson’s story is entirely plausible.

    It is in a few details that the difference between Johnson and Wilson become apparent.

    It is in those few details that we need additional evidence to guide us to reasonable belief.

    A question like ‘do you believe Johnson’, as though it is some sort of litmus test, demonstrates a lack of appreciation of what it takes to reach a well supported and reasonable belief about what occurred in Ferguson.

    Those without an agenda, interested in what actually happened will asked detailed questions to identify both the contradictions and the consistencies that lead to the truth.

  65. blouise says:

    Here is a notable comparison. The officials in Cleveland, knowing that leaks happen, offered the victim’s family an opportunity to view the surveillance video just in case it was leaked so the family wouldn’t be caught off guard. In Ferguson, McCulloch notified the media the grand jury had reached a decision hours before notifying the victim’s family. In fact, the first the family heard of it was from the media.

    Man’s inhumanity towards man is a subject in which McCulloch and his crew are expert. Metaphorically, the dead body is still in the street.

  66. Elaine M. says:

    Blouise,

    Cleveland police shooting of 12-year-old Tamir Rice demands a transparent, thorough investigation and — if warranted — prosecution: editorial
    http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/11/police_shooting_of_12-year-old.html

    Excerpt:
    And let’s not forget: The Cleveland Police Department’s use of deadly and nondeadly force is the subject of a 20-month-and-counting federal investigation. Independent oversight of this investigation and early involvement of the prosecutor’s office in reviewing the evidence are essential.

  67. swarthmoremom says:

    Thank you, bfm, for answering the question. Your answer was insightful and much more enlightening than mine was going to be had I answered..

    • bigfatmike says:

      I always find your remarks interesting and if I in anyway inhibited your response then I apologize. I had no intention to jump in front. .

      I believe one of the wonderful things about a blog like this on is that we can all speak out, hopefully, without talking over each other.

      But I do believe that militarization of local LE and in particular ‘rules of engagement’ are a very important issue. I hope that you and others who read this blog will give us your ideas on what I think is a critical subject.

  68. blouise17 says:

    Elaine,

    Yep … A Justice Department review of Cleveland police was requested by Mayor Jackson in December 2012, following a controversial police chase in which a third of the city’s on-duty police officers participated without seeking permission and which ended with a barrage of police gunfire that killed two people.

    The chase took place in November 2012. A grand jury indicted 6 officers in May of this year.

    The Feds are still here

  69. Elaine M. says:

    Speaking of mobs:

    The Sons of Liberty
    http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/related/sons.htm

    Excerpt:
    The first widely known acts of the Sons took place on August 14, 1765, when an effigy of Andrew Oliver (who was to be commissioned Distributor of Stamps for Massachusetts) was found hanging in a tree on Newbury street, along with a large boot with a devil climbing out of it. The boot was a play on the name of the Earl of Bute and the whole display was intended to establish an evil connection between Oliver and the Stamp Act. The sheriffs were told to remove the display but protested in fear of their lives, for a large crowd had formed at the scene. Before the evening a mob burned Oliver’s property on Kilby street, then moved on to his house. There they beheaded the effigy and stoned the house as its occupants looked out in horror. They then moved to nearby Fort Hill were they built a large fire and burned what was left of the effigy. Most of the crowd dissipated at that point, however McIntosh and crew, then under cover of darkness, ransacked Oliver’s abandoned home until midnight. On that evening it became very clear who ruled Boston. The British Militia, the Sheriffs and Justices, kept a low profile. No one dared respond to such violent force.

  70. swarthmoremom says:

    bfm, My response to the question had not come together yet so thank you. I have been busy baking. 🙂

  71. Bob Stone says:

    “The useful question is what part of his story seems to make sense and what parts are substantiated by other facts like physical evidence and other eye witness testimony.”

    BFM,

    What part of Johnson’s story of the altercation at the car makes sense and is substantiated by forensic evidence?

    • bigfatmike says:

      @Bob Stone: “What part of Johnson’s story of the altercation at the car makes sense and is substantiated by forensic evidence?”

      Thank you Bob, for the opportunity to review some of the facts of this situation.

      My recollection is that Johnson claims there was an altercation in which Wilson grabbed Brown around the neck. Apparently this took place with Wilson still, at least, partially in the SUV.

      Wilson also claimed there was an altercation in which Brown grabbed for the gun while Wilson was still in the SUV.

      The forensic evidence suggest there was some sort of altercation between Brown and Wilson in which Brown was wounded with Wilson and Brown, at least partially, in the SUV.

      I think you are faced with one of two alternatives:

      1) Admit there was an altercation along the lines described by both Johnson and Wilson and supported by the forensic evidence

      2) Or to claim that Johnson and Wilson are liars when they claim there was an altercation, and that the forensic evidence is in some way false, incomplete, misleading or a total fabrication.

      So which is it Bob. Do you believe Johnson and Wilson? Or are you ready to call Johnson and Wilson liars?

      BTW Bob, if you know of any forensic evidence that would allow us to determine whether Johnson or Wilson is more accurate in their description of the altercation, please let us know what that forensic evidence is.

  72. bron98 says:

    Elaine:

    that last post was hilarious. Al Sharpton as Sam Adams and Jesse Jackson as Paul Revere.

    Is this when monkeys fly out of my arse?

  73. bron98 says:

    I bet they indict him and let the court system handle it. Throw it down the road a year or 2.

  74. swarthmoremom says:

    Not currently posting on the Turley blog but I clicked on and that place looks like a Klan meeting this afternoon…… racist photos and bigoted poetry. Sickening…..

  75. Elaine M. says:

    Swarthmoremom,

    I’m not sorry that I left RIL. I rarely visit the blog these days. I did, however, leave a comment on one of the Ferguson posts today. It is indeed sickening to think what has happened to a once excellent forum for discussions on politics and issues of import. Can’t say I miss writing for RIL. I DO enjoy writing for FFS!

  76. swarthmoremom says:

    Elaine, I don’t know how two of the remaining guest bloggers stay associated with that outfit. I am boycotting it.

  77. Inga says:

    SWM and Elaine, yup. It’s become a swamp filled with misogynists, homophobes and racists. No different than Althouse or any rightist blog. What a damn shame. I’m pretty much done over there too.

  78. Slartibartfast says:

    Ugh. Just read the Professor’s USA Today column over at RIL. I find it hard to believe that someone once known as a staunch civil libertarian wrote that blatant apologia. It’s kind of like the pigs in Animal Farm—all pieces of forensic evidence are equal, but some are more equal than others. In this case, the Professor makes much of the non-fatal wound Mr. Brown received while inside or in close proximity to Officer Wilson’s vehicle as being exculpatory, but makes no mention at all of Mr. Brown’s distance from the vehicle when he was fatally wounded. Personally, I would think that most civil libertarians would at least be curious as to how the justification to use lethal force persisted for the time it took Mr. Brown to get over 100 feet away from the SUV, but I guess Professor Turley doesn’t see that as important as calling out the rioters without even acknowledging the peaceful protesters or their legitimate grievances. I guess it isn’t surprising that, now that he is working for John Boehner, anything the government does is okay—unless President Obama has something to do with it.

    I stopped reading the comments after the first few. What a cesspool.

  79. gbk says:

    Bron,

    “Is this when monkeys fly out of my arse?”

    Maybe.

  80. Dammit.

    Ya’ll made me look. What I saw? Did nothing but aggravate the nausea I am currently fighting with this flu bug.

    Jonathan should take pride in the level of discourse he and his FOX sponsored subjective and selectively enforced policies have wrought. He got what he wanted. Which is apparently a hotbed of teabagger ignorance and racist buffoonery. Good for him.

    I guess that does explain though why in the past three months RIL global ranking has declined 2,394 positions compared to the previous three months and their search engine traffic is down 23.00% over the same period according to Alexa.

    Now if you’ll pardon me, I must go be sick.

  81. blouise says:

    Jan 5, 2014. (really Jan 4 very late on a Saturday night) was my first post here and I never returned to that other place.

    • Mike Spindell says:

      My less than one year here at FFS, has been more rewarding than all my years with Turley. FFS is what RIL started out being, the difference here though is that none of us are whores for the fame and fortune Jonathan seems to have lusted after..

  82. gbk says:

    SWM,

    “I have been busy baking.”

    Baking something to eat, I would assume, and not merely baking all by yourself.

  83. Bob Stone says:

    BFM,

    False dilemma? Rather sophomoric; wouldn’t you say?

    Besides, the NYT reported that “The officials briefed on the case said the forensic evidence gathered in the car lent credence to Officer Wilson’s version of events.”

    Not Johnson’s

    Wilson realized that Johnson’s clothing matched a recent radio alert about a suspect in a robbery at a nearby market where cigarillos had been taken. Wilson radioed for assistance and backed up his SUV to Brown and Johnson.

    The source said Wilson told investigators he had placed the SUV in park. When Wilson tried to get out of the SUV, Brown slammed its door shut and punched Wilson in the left side of the face through the open window, the source said.

    Wilson, trapped in the front seat, couldn’t use his pepper spray in the confined space because it would incapacitate him as well. His baton was at the back of his utility belt, where he was essentially sitting on it. He did not have a Taser. So he drew his gun.

    Brown grabbed the pistol using his right hand, with his elbow against Wilson. Wilson described Brown as incredibly strong, the source said.

    During the struggle, Brown handed the cigarillos to Johnson, then swung his left hand and hit Wilson on the right side of the face. Wilson said he almost lost consciousness, the source said. Brown then began to use his left hand in the struggle for the gun, and turned the pistol until the barrel was against Wilson’s hip.

    Wilson positioned his finger to try to prevent Brown from reaching the trigger. When Wilson pulled himself back toward the passenger side of the SUV, Brown’s grip loosened enough for Wilson to try to pull the trigger, the source said.

    But the gun didn’t fire. Wilson said he believed that Brown’s hand may have been on the hammer, preventing it from moving, the source said. The second time Wilson pulled the trigger, the gun did fire. Wilson told investigators he thought the bullet had struck Brown in the hand, the source said. Broken window glass was everywhere, and blood was on the door, the gun and Wilson’s hands. At the time, Wilson said, he wasn’t sure whose blood it was.

    The struggle continued, and Wilson attempted to pull the trigger twice more. The source said Wilson thought Brown’s hand may have interfered again. Wilson was able to fire a second shot, and Brown ran.

    http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/source-darren-wilson-says-michael-brown-kept-charging-at-him/article_d2cf8b20-c517-592b-96ba-77d8a5f46fef.html

  84. gbk says:

    The women get it right much more than given credit. The cultural deafness permeating this country astounds me.

  85. Slartibartfast says:

    Bob,

    Was that sufficient justification to shoot Mr. Brown dead after he had gotten more than 100 feet away from the vehicle or would there need to be more provocation? If so, what would be sufficient action for Mr. Brown’s death to have been justified?

  86. swarthmoremom says:

    gbk, I was baking food for thanksgiving. 🙂

  87. gbk says:

    SWM,

    Good for you.

  88. Slarti,
    I tuned in late, but watched the last twenty minutes or so of the press conference. Brown got part-way into Wilson’s patrol car, and two shots were fired inside the vehicle. One round was fired at a downward angle into the door panel and that bullet was recovered. Brown’s DNA and blood were found on the inside of the patrol vehicle, including on Wilson’s collar, pant leg and inside the door. The second round fired was never recovered, but the graze wound to Brown’s thumb was likely caused by that shot, because powder residue was found on Brown’s hand around the graze wound. That was the only bullet wound from close enough to leave powder burns, and that has to be at a range of inches, not feet or yards. All that physical evidence suggests a struggle for Wilson’s weapon.

    Brown took off and Wilson gave chase. That is standard procedure if a suspect tries to disarm an officer. Keep in mind that it was dark, and Wilson had no idea if Brown was armed or not, or for that matter, how old he was. Brown turned and advanced toward Wilson, at which time more shots were fired. Chasing a suspect a hundred feet is not very far, and doing so is part of the job description, especially in a shots fired situation.

  89. swarthmoremom says:

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/ ““If the prosecutor wants an indictment and doesn’t get one, something has gone horribly wrong,” said Andrew D. Leipold, a University of Illinois law professor who has written critically about grand juries. “It just doesn’t happen.”

    Cases involving police shootings, however, appear to be an exception. As my colleague Reuben Fischer-Baum has written, we don’t have good data on officer-involved killings. But newspaper accounts suggest, grand juries frequently decline to indict law-enforcement officials. A recent Houston Chronicle investigation found that “police have been nearly immune from criminal charges in shootings” in Houston and other large cities in recent years. In Harris County, Texas, for example, grand juries haven’t indicted a Houston police officer since 2004; in Dallas, grand juries reviewed 81 shootings between 2008 and 2012 and returned just one indictment. Separate research by Bowling Green State University criminologist Philip Stinson has found that officers are rarely charged in on-duty killings, although it didn’t look at grand jury indictments specifically.”

  90. Elaine M. says:

    Chuck,

    I believe Michael Brown was killed just after noontime–not at night. It wasn’t dark…it was broad daylight.

  91. gbk says:

    “Wilson, trapped in the front seat, couldn’t use his pepper spray in the confined space because it would incapacitate him as well. His baton was at the back of his utility belt, where he was essentially sitting on it. He did not have a Taser. So he drew his gun.”

    Isn’t it funny how multilayer defenses fail when reality steps in?

    Trapped in your own police cruiser!

    Can’t use pepper spray because I’m here too!

    I love the “baton at the back, where he was sitting on it.” Yeah, I always sit on two foot pieces of metal while I’m driving.

    No taser! What a fool. Obviously, the only option left is to shoot to kill.

  92. blouise says:

    I can’t wait to read the testimony!

  93. Elaine,
    You are correct of course. My bad. I am terminally tired. Just got back from out of town, running on no sleep and no food. My brain went on strike about 2:00 this afternoon. I am too old to keep up this pace. Regardless, there was a struggle inside the patrol car, and shots were fired. Wilson was obligated to give chase. That was the main point of my response to Slarti.

    Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable, as Dr. Elizabeth Loftus has demonstrated repeatedly. Obviously, that was proven beyond a doubt in this case. That leaves physical forensic evidence as the best and most reliable information.

  94. gbk,
    Have you ever been pepper sprayed, or been in a confined place where the stuff was deployed? It gets on everything, and will put you out of commission.

    For reference purposes, take a look at this Wiki pepper chart for hotness.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoville_scale

    Police grade pepper spray is 5,300,000 Scoville Units. Not what you want in your eyes and nose if somebody is punching you or trying to grab your weapon.

  95. Slartibartfast says:

    Chuck,

    I’m perfectly willing to believe that there are plausible circumstances under which the shooting would be justified, I’m just wondering why the details haven’t been released. Add in the reluctance to draw attention to the distance (and time) between the initial confrontation and final shot and the obvious bias of the process in Officer Wilson’s favor and I think there are ample grounds to think that something smells bad here. That doesn’t mean that Officer Wilson is guilty of anything (he could have followed inappropriate procedures or not been given adequate training), but the appearance of impropriety suggests to me that the protesters have a legitimate complaint, as the process, like our own Bob, appeared to rush to exonerate Officer Wilson rather than find the truth, whatever it might be.

  96. gbk says:

    Chuck,

    “gbk,
    Have you ever been pepper sprayed, or been in a confined place where the stuff was deployed? It gets on everything, and will put you out of commission.”

    You miss my satire.

    I’m well aware of the Scoville Units, both as a avid fan of extremely spicy food, and as a reader of your constant harpings on the subject along with your tactical flashlight.

    I’m just surprised that Wilson’s seat belt, obviously trapping him between his baton and steering wheel is not offered as a point of justification for shooting someone in the fucking head.

    I know you disdain my presence, Chuck. But, fuck off, ok? I put no one on a pedestal.

    Does this quote from Bob really make any sense:

    “Wilson, trapped in the front seat, couldn’t use his pepper spray in the confined space because it would incapacitate him as well. His baton was at the back of his utility belt, where he was essentially sitting on it. He did not have a Taser. So he drew his gun.”

    How is Wilson “trapped” in the front seat? Baton; seat belt; fear? The rest is bullshit. You accept the premise and disregard the rest.

  97. gbk says:

    “Wilson, trapped in the front seat, couldn’t use his pepper spray in the confined space because it would incapacitate him as well. His baton was at the back of his utility belt, where he was essentially sitting on it. He did not have a Taser. So he drew his gun.”

    Wilson, even while sitting on his baton, could have driven either forward or backward enough to rescue himself from being “trapped,” unless of course the transmission of the vehicle was trapped also.

    This might have allowed a small moment of situational assessment. But no, Wilson was “trapped” in the front seat of his own vehicle from two black men walking down the middle of the road.

    What audaciousness!

  98. Bob Stone says:

    McCulloch: “When statements changed, witnesses were confronted with the inconsistencies and conflict between their statements and the physical evidence. Some witnesses admitted they did not actually see the shooting or only saw part of the shooting. Only repeating what they heard on the street. Some others adjusted parts of their statements to fit the facts. [PIAGET CRENSHAW] Others stood by original statements even though their statements were completely discredited by the physical evidence.”

    “Bias in Wilson’s favor?”

    Witnesses were bending over backwards to lie for Brown.

  99. Bob Stone says:

    Gbk,

    Exactly what hand does he use to put the car in gear while he’s wrestling Brown for the weapon so he doesn’t get shot?

  100. blouise17 says:

    Gbk,

    Exactly what hand does he use to put the car in gear while he’s wrestling Brown for the weapon so he doesn’t get shot? Bob S

    Exactly why one doesn’t put the car in park. Wilson’s failure to follow basic police procedure was a self-induced trap. Such procedures are taught for that very reason.

  101. Bob Stone says:

    I see; so he’s supposed to exit the vehicle with the car in gear.

    Got ya.

  102. blouise17 says:

    Why would he want to exit the vehicle before backup arrives? That’s another failure to follow basic police procedure called “over-committing”.

    Got ya? In your dreams!

  103. gbk says:

    Bob,

    “Exactly what hand does he use to put the car in gear while he’s wrestling Brown for the weapon so he doesn’t get shot?”

    You miss my point.

    To be “trapped” in an SUV while sitting on your baton while not being able to get to your pepper spray and leaving the sole option of shooting someone in the head, (after one gets out of the SUV they were previously “trapped” in), reeks of incompetence to me.

    It is the word “trapped” that I object to, as this sets up a sympathy that is not deserved. It is propaganda directed at the most successful of American institutions — that of racist division.

  104. Elaine M. says:

    Check out the serious facial injuries Michael Brown inflicted on Darren Wilson:

    Photos Show Officer Darren Wilson After Michael Brown Shooting
    http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/photos-show-officer-darren-wilson-after-michael-brown-shooting-n255486

  105. Bob Stone says:

    So when Brown slammed Wilson’s door shut and punched him in the left side of the face through the open window and then wrestled him for his gun ….

    That was Wilson’s fault.

    And because Wilson didn’t follow procedure, he was wrong to shoot Brown in self defense when he came back at him for more while his gun was drawn?

  106. Elaine M. says:

    McCulloch said some witnesses “disappeared.” I wonder what happened to them?

  107. blouise17 says:

    The testimony is very interesting thus far. Wilson and Brown in “I be the man!”, which is how I read Wilson’s testimony. Brown didn’t land his punches very well.

  108. The Grand Jury testimony is now on line. Almost five thousand pages.

    Click to access grand-jury-testimony.pdf

  109. Bob Stone says:

    Gbk,

    Explain to me the racism angle to this shooting.

    Are you saying Wilson is a murderous racist?

    And if so, how did you arrive at the conclusion?

  110. Elaine,
    Vanishing witnesses is not that unusual. When there are a lot of witnesses, there is a high probability that some will not appear and be hard to locate. One of the problems of living in a highly mobile society.

  111. blouise17 says:

    Bob S,

    Wilson was a tragedy waiting to happen. According to his own testimony he told Brown he was going to shoot him while he was still in the car. “I be the man!”

  112. blouise17 says:

    One of my prosecutor friends sent me the pdf. Gotta find Dorian Johnson’s testimony and see if it changed from what he told the media.

  113. Elaine M. says:

    Chuck,

    I don’t trust McCulloch. The fix was in from the get-go, IMHO.

  114. Slartibartfast says:

    Bob,

    If Officer Wilson didn’t follow procedure, then he should be fired (not allowed to resign) and held accountable for his negligence and steps should be taken to make sure that other officers understand what proper procedure in that situation should have been. If he did follow procedure and Mr. Brown didn’t do anything that justified his being shot to death, then the procedures should be reexamined (and Officer Wilson should be allowed to keep his job). If procedure was followed and Mr. Brown’s actions justified his fate then the evidence of this should be shown in as transparent a way as possible (as opposed to the propagandized releasing of pieces of information by the prosecutor and police chief).

    Your comparison of witnesses destroying their own credibility by trying smear Officer Wilson in contradiction of the physical evidence to systematic bias in the process towards Officer Wilson is a particularly blatant false equivalence. Especially since, unlike the people arguing with you, you have been completely unwilling to acknowledge the bad actors or actions of those on your own side.

  115. blouise17 says:

    Elaine,

    McCulloch certainly whined a lot during his opening remarks. Nasty media, nasty social media, poor McCulloch.

  116. gbk says:

    Bob,

    “Gbk,
    Explain to me the racism angle to this shooting.
    Are you saying Wilson is a murderous racist?
    And if so, how did you arrive at the conclusion?”

    —————————————————————

    Don’t draw me into your myopic world. My words were plain.

    I used the word “trapped” because your quote source did. Here it is again so that you remember:

    “Wilson, trapped in the front seat, couldn’t use his pepper spray in the confined space because it would incapacitate him as well. His baton was at the back of his utility belt, where he was essentially sitting on it. He did not have a Taser. So he drew his gun.”

    All I stated was that the use of the word “trapped” was a setup of addressing the racist division that exists in this country and how this word was succinctly chosen to garner sympathy.

    Take your self-perpetuating bullshit down the road. I’ve not said anything you accuse me of in your quote directly above.

  117. Bob Stone says:

    Kevin,

    Your first paragraph is incoherent.

    False equivalence my ass. You never even brought up the media. You mentioned “the obvious bias of the process in Officer Wilson’s favor”

    My comment showed you how witnesses, WITHIN THE PROCESS, were bending over backwards to lie for Brown.

    The BIAS was always against Wilson; even among those who are charged with the duty of remaining objective:

    As I wrote earlier:

    the Governor of Missouri and the U.S. Attorney General also exhibited signs of this Queen of Hearts Syndrome by TELLING YOU who the villain was before the completion of any investigation. Governor Nixon threw Officer Wilson under the bus when he said that “a vigorous prosecution must be pursued.” Not for nothing, but how many times in his 16 years as State Attorney General did he pursue “a vigorous prosecution” before any investigation was complete? Or is that how he became governor?

    And then there’s Attorney General Holder, who appeared in Ferguson as Impropriety Incarnate and said, “this attorney general and this Department of Justice stands for the people of Ferguson” … “My commitment to them is long after this tragic story no longer receives this level of attention, the Justice Department will continue to stand with Ferguson.” Stand against whom? Since the Attorney General doesn’t hold press conferences to discuss the “tragic story” behind every justified shooting, Holder’s comments clearly implied Wilson was not justified in shooting Brown before any investigation was complete. And this just one day after Holder personally sought to comfort the Brown family while completely ignoring the welfare of Officer Wilson who was forced into hiding by the mob and genuinely feared for his life and the life of his family. All of the foregoing words and actions by Holder obviously constituted “extrajudicial comment[s] having a substantial likelihood of heightening public condemnation” of Wilson.

    http://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_rules_of_professional_conduct/rule_3_8_special_responsibilities_of_a_prosecutor.html

    September 13, 2014, 12:00 pm
    It’s Department of Justice, not convictions

    By Daniel Nardello

    Attorney General Eric Holder’s much heralded visit to Ferguson, Mo. in the wake of the shooting of Michael Brown, and the days of rioting, looting and protests that followed, raises serious questions about the appropriate role of the Justice Department and of the Attorney General himself in this controversial case.

    After meeting with parents and supporters of Brown, Holder spoke of the “mistrust” of the police by the people of Ferguson and proclaimed, “This Attorney General and this Department of Justice stands with the people.”

    The context of Holder’s statements, together with his decision to launch a federal civil rights investigation before local authorities have had an opportunity to conclude their inquiry, make it clear that he is “standing with the people” against the police. To be sure, Ferguson police have not handled the shooting and its aftermath well: an initial refusal to release the officer’s name, a presence on the street more suited to Fallujah than to Ferguson, and the ham-fisted release of the convenience store video, all contributed to exacerbating tensions and suspicions surrounding the shooting.

    Yet, Holder’s contribution has been no more elegant, and given his position, is potentially more damaging.

    The Department of Justice has a legitimate and important role to play in enforcing the civil rights laws. It is a role I came to understand first hand in 1989, when as a federal prosecutor in Manhattan, I investigated, prosecuted and convicted police officers for falsely arresting African American and Hispanic men on trumped-up charges of sexually abusing white women on New York City subways. Together with an understanding of the venality some police officers are capable of, that horrific case taught me an important lesson about the proper exercise of prosecutorial power. In deciding whether to turn over evidence potentially harmful to the prosecution but not strictly discoverable by the defense (I ultimately did), a colleague reminded me that I “worked for the Department of Justice, not the Department of Convictions.”

    Holder would do well to keep that injunction in mind.

    http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/judicial/217494-its-department-of-justice-not-convictions

  118. “All I stated was that the use of the word “trapped” was a setup of addressing the racist division that exists in this country and how this word was succinctly chosen to garner sympathy.”
    ****************************************
    What kind of logic is that? I like to think I am pretty good at figuring people out, but mind reading is above my pay grade.

  119. Bob Stone says:

    Gbk,

    My apologies for jumping the gun.

    Let’s review:

    “It is the word “trapped” that I object to, as this sets up a sympathy that is not deserved. It is propaganda directed at the most successful of American institutions — that of racist division.”

    “All I stated was that the use of the word “trapped” was a setup of addressing the racist division that exists in this country and how this word was succinctly chosen to garner sympathy.”

    Question: How did the issue of race enter into your calculus regarding the Brown shooting?

  120. gbk says:

    Chuck,

    ““All I stated was that the use of the word “trapped” was a setup of addressing the racist division that exists in this country and how this word was succinctly chosen to garner sympathy.”
    ****************************************
    What kind of logic is that? I like to think I am pretty good at figuring people out, but mind reading is above my pay grade.”

    ———————————————————-

    Read the thread, you take things out of context in your distaste for me. I did not use the word “trapped”, Bob’s source did. Get a grip.

  121. Distaste for you? Come on now. I have not developed any kind of feelings for you one way or the other. Disagree? Yes, on occasion. Agree? Yes, on occasion. This is a site for debating ideas, not personalities. There are a handful of bloggers for whom I truly have distaste, but none of them post on this site so far, and probably won’t.

  122. Elaine M. says:

    Chuck,

    They don’t post here–but they do visit and make mention of FFS at RIL.

  123. Elaine M. says:

    Ferguson Prosecutor Robert McCulloch Gives Bizarre Press Conference
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/24/bob-mcculloch-ferguson_n_6215986.html

    Excerpt:
    The prosecutor also repeatedly lashed out at the media, blaming the internet and “the 24-hour news cycle” for the unrest in Ferguson, Missouri, where Brown was shot and killed in August. He continued talking for several minutes before revealing the much-anticipated grand jury decision.

    “The most significant challenge encountered in this investigation has been the 24-hour news cycle and its insatiable appetite for something, for anything to talk about, following closely behind with the non-stop rumors on social media,” he said.

    Media figures and social media users lashed out at the notion that cable news and Twitter were to blame for the tension in the months following Brown’s death, rather than the death itself.

    “Social media isn’t the problem,” author Maureen Johnson said. “Shooting children is the problem.”

  124. Eliane,
    If they are visiting, that’s cool. Glad they are interested enough to follow our stories.

  125. gbk says:

    Bob,

    “Question: How did the issue of race enter into your calculus regarding the Brown shooting?”

    It was your source quote that used the word “trapped,” that’s how it entered my calculus.

    The word does bring up specific connotations of being in fear for one’s life. But more specifically, the word “trapped” suggests something akin to “ambushed,” or, “outgunned,” or, “backed into a corner.” There are many synonyms or phrases that can fill in for “trapped.”

    What was Wilson “trapped” by?

    The word usage of “trapped” in your source quote is repugnant as it was used to trigger racial stereotypes for any sense of definition given the encounter; this is my argument.

    We will probably never agree on this word usage of “trapped,” in this context. That’s fine with me.

  126. blouise says:

    Oh boy … read Dorian Johnson’s testimony!!!

    • bigfatmike says:

      Can you give us the beginning page or approximate location for Johnson’s testimony?

      My pdf viewer can’t search the document I downloaded, apparently because it is an image that was scanned.

      I am not looking forward to shuffling through 4799 pages.

  127. gbk says:

    Chuck,

    “This is a site for debating ideas, not personalities.”

    Then read the threads before commenting.

    Chill out, Otteray.

  128. gbk says:

    “Bob,

    “Exactly what hand does he use to put the car in gear while he’s wrestling Brown for the weapon so he doesn’t get shot?”

    You miss my point.”

    ————————————————–

    Sorry for any confusion in quoting Blouise and attributing it to Bob. Oh well, time for bed.

    Blouise,

    I had actually referenced your questions on police procedure of some time ago in my original response, but stripped them out before I posted the above. Sorry for the crossed wires.

  129. Slartibartfast says:

    Bob,

    Witnesses that are going through the process (especially those that discredit themselves by contradicting physical evidence) have nothing to do with bias inherent in the process itself (i.e. people like the prosecutor and the police chief who both appeared to go out of their way to portray Officer Wilson in a good light). Furthermore, while the governor and the attorney general spoke like politicians rather than lawyers (shocking, isn’t it?), they weren’t directly influencing the grand jury or directly affecting Officer Wilson’s due process. Yes, a lot of people used a lot of biased rhetoric (including, I might point out, some supporters of Officer Wilson) in speaking about this issue, but none of them had an impact on the legal disposition of the case.

    The fact is, either the system has integrity or it doesn’t. Some of the actions of key players gave the appearance that it might not. Is everyone just supposed to accept the result of the system even if it turns out that the fix was in from the beginning? Is that your idea of justice?

  130. blouise17 says:

    gbk,

    Not to worry. Wilson didn’t practice basic police procedures because Wilson wasn’t doing police work.

    You have to read Dorian Johnson’s testimony. Then juxtapose it to Wilson’s. You’ll see what I mean.

  131. blouise17 says:

    bfm,

    Sept 10 …Lots of video stuff mentioned in the beginning. His actual testimony starts on page 506 from the link Chuck provided. Cover page is 489 (I think)

    I’m working from a pdf that was emailed to me but I think I’ve given you the right numbers for Chuck’s link if that’s what you’re working with.

    • bigfatmike says:

      Thanks for your help, much appreciated, and yes I am working from Chuck’s suggested pdf – Thanks Chuck.

  132. blouise17 says:

    I think it’s Volume IV

  133. nivico says:

    Dorian Johnson’s testimony is Volume 4 (181 pages).

    Pay close attention to the questions the APA asks him and the subject material that the APA keeps revisiting. They know he’s lying and they have physical evidence that disproves elements of his story, but Dorian doesn’t know that.

    How does Big Mike have the wherewithal to turn around and hand Dorian the cigarillos, as Dorian claims he did, if Wilson has him in a tight grip that he can’t escape, as Dorian claims he did?

    How is there a blood trail extending 25 or so feet beyond where the body lay if, as Dorian testifies, he didn’t turn around and come back towards Wilson?

    How is there blood evidence inside the cab of the vehicle if, as Dorian claims, Mike’s arm was never in the vehicle?

    Oh, yeah, and about those numerous other witnesses who testified that Brown charged the officer… you can’t call them unsubstantiated rumors anymore.

  134. Elaine M. says:

    Decision to announce grand jury verdict at night devastating
    By Jeffrey Toobin
    http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/25/opinion/toobin-ferguson-grand-jury/

    Excerpt:
    (CNN) — The grand jury has made its decision not to indict Officer Darren Wilson in the death of Michael Brown last August in Ferguson, Missouri. But another verdict became clear last night, too. The decision by St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert McCulloch to announce the decision at 8:30 p.m. CT was foolish and dangerous.

    Here’s the thing about that time of night: it’s dark. Anyone — anyone! — should have known that the decision in the Brown case would have been controversial. A decision not to indict, which was always possible, even likely, would have been sure to attract protests, even violence. Crowd control is always more difficult in the dark.

    The grand jury’s deliberations concluded around lunchtime on Monday. It would have been simple to make the announcement while it was still daytime. Still, McCulloch said that he would not announce the grand jury’s decision until 8 p.m. CT.

    At a news conference in the late afternoon, Gov. Jay Nixon was asked about this nighttime announcement. In an answer that was consistent with his generally clueless performance throughout this crisis, Nixon said the decision to announce the decision at night was made solely by McCulloch. In other words, don’t ask him! He’s only the governor!

    • bigfatmike says:

      “Here’s the thing about that time of night: it’s dark. Anyone — anyone! — should have known that the decision in the Brown case would have been controversial.”

      I believe some on CNN mentioned advantages of a night announcement including some businesses would be closed, many workers and school children would be home and off the streets.

      One with a more cynical view might also note that any violence due to the grand jury decision would tend to direct attention away from the unique process of that grand jury and the decision itself.

      Despite the violence, which we all ought to condemn, some in the MSM have commented on the fact that in most grand jury proceedings the prosecutor presents a view or theory and evidence to support that view. In this grand jury to prosecutor said, ahead of time, he would, present everything. It seems that he did just that.

      There has been much discussion over whether Wilson has presented special treatment for or against him. Where it mattered most, in front of the grand jury, Wilson received special treatment.

  135. Elaine M. says:

    Michael Brown Shooting Witness Admitted Racism In Journal Entry
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/25/michael-brown-witness_n_6216366.html?cps=gravity

    Excerpt:
    WASHINGTON — One of the witnesses to the fatal shooting of unarmed black teenager Michael Brown admitted to holding racist views about African-Americans in a journal entry written on the same day of the shooting, according to documents released by St. Louis Prosecuting Attorney Robert McCulloch’s office Monday.

    On Aug. 9, the day Brown was shot by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson, the witness wrote in his or her journal: “Well I’m gonna take my random drive to Florissant. Need to understand the Black race better so I stop calling Blacks Niggers and Start calling them People.”…

    Notably, McCulloch said at his press conference Monday night that all of the witnesses who said they saw Brown charge at Wilson were black. That seems undercut by the diary.

    “All the ones that I mentioned specifically were all African-Americans, were the ones who came at him in a full charge,” he said in response to a question about the race of the witnesses saying that Brown had charged. “So the others who had very consistent stories — not just with each other, not just their stories or their testimony throughout — but they were consistent with the others, several others. They’re all African-American.”

  136. bettykath says:

    “Wilson, trapped in the front seat, couldn’t use his pepper spray in the confined space because it would incapacitate him as well. His baton was at the back of his utility belt, where he was essentially sitting on it. He did not have a Taser. So he drew his gun.”

    He’s trapped in a close encounter so, instead of continuing to sit on his gun, he unholstered it where there could be a struggle for control of it? Doesn’t sound very professional or wise.

  137. bettykath says:

    I thought Grand Jury proceeding were secret, not to be divulged or discussed. I go to the link and there it is, a transcript of the secret proceedings.

  138. pete says:

    I believe it’s just the vote that’s secret.

  139. swarthmoremom says:

    http://www.politico.com/story/2014/11/gregory-meeks-ferguson-grand-jury-reaction-113161.html?hp=l2_4 “New York Rep. Gregory Meeks on Tuesday slammed the St. Louis prosecutor after no indictment was made of Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting of unarmed teen Michael Brown.

    “I have questions in whether or not this prosecutor really wanted an indictment, and I think that’s clear,” Meeks (D-N.Y.) said on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.”

    “It seems as though the prosecutor went into the grand jury wanting an outcome and that outcome being a no true bill,” he added, referring to St. Louis County Prosecutor Robert P. McCulloch. “This is a decision that folks do not understand and there’s questions in regards to this particular prosecutor.”

    Meeks, a former assistant district attorney and special narcotics prosecutor in New York City, also noted that while violent protests erupted overnight in Ferguson, there were a number of non-violent demonstrations as well. “No one wants violence,” he said.”

  140. Elaine M. says:

    Rudy Giuliani Says White Cops Are Needed To Stop Black People From Shooting Each Other
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/23/rudy-giuliani-ferguson_n_6207608.html

    Excerpt:
    “White police officers won’t be there if you weren’t killing each other 70 percent of the time,” Giuliani added.

    “This is a defense mechanism of white supremacy at work in your mind, sir,” Dyson replied.

    ProPublica recently found that “young black men are 21 times as likely as their white peers to be killed by police,” according to data collected between 2010 and 2012.

    And this tension isn’t anything new. In 1967, a panel convened by President Lyndon Johnson after the race riots in Newark and Detroit characterized the relationship between police and minority communities as “abrasive.”

    “To pursue our present course will involve the continuing polarization of the American community and, ultimately, the destruction of basic democratic values,” the panel concluded.

    The racial disparity between police forces and communities at large remains significant. According to The New York Times, “[i]n hundreds of police departments across the country, the percentage of whites on the force is more than 30 percentage points higher than in the communities they serve, according to an analysis of a government survey of police departments.”

  141. blouise says:

    I read the whole thing. I found probable cause that Darren Wilson committed a crime and after reading the questions asked by the prosecutor’s assistants and the jurors understand perfectly why they did not indict.

    Darren Wilson had to chase Mike Brown down in order to engage in self-defense. Nothing to see here. Move on.

    For a sitting prosecutor, McCulloch makes one hell of a fine defense lawyer.

  142. swarthmoremom says:

    Indeed, McCulloch did perform well as Darren Wilson’s attorney, Blouise.

  143. Elaine M. says:

    Blouise and swarthmoremom,

    I started working on a post about McCulloch this morning–but can’t finish it until my husband gets home with his computer. My computer is out of commission. It’s so frustrating!

    • bigfatmike says:

      ” My computer is out of commission. It’s so frustrating!”

      Will somebody please loan that woman a computer!

      I am old enough to remember the old days when they used yellow legal pads.

  144. nivico says:

    “Darren Wilson had to chase Mike Brown down in order to engage in self-defense.”

    It’s called ‘hot pursuit’ and, despite what you heard once from some random cop, it’s not only perfectly legal it’s part of the job requirement.

    Here’s the legal definition:

    “Hot pursuit is pursuit by a law enforcement officer (with or without a warrant) for the purpose of preventing the escape or effecting the arrest of any person who is suspected of committing, or having committed, a misdemeanor or felony. Hot pursuit implies pursuit without unreasonable delay, but need not be immediate pursuit. It can also refer to chasing a suspect or escaped felon into a neighboring jurisdiction in an emergency, without time to alert law enforcement people in that area.”

  145. blouise says:

    Elaine and SwM,

    The system worked exactly as it was designed to work. If you remember Karl Rove and Rick Cheney’s reactions of disbelief to the election of Obama. They couldn’t believe the system failed.

    But not to worry. The system is back on track. The grand jury fell into line right behind Wilson (Zimmerman with a badge) and the system worked flawlessly once again. The thug of color deserved to die for his life, when juxtaposed to Wilson’s, was of little value. It is a continuation of the 3/5ths rule all dressed up to fit modern-day sensibilities. It is how Wilson, at 6’4″ and well over 200lbs, could present himself to the jury as a 5 year old hanging onto the Hulk and be believed.

    Had they issued an indictment, the trial jury would have found themselves in the same position as the Zimmerman jury. That is the way the laws are written and those laws are the foundation upon which the system is built.

    I look forward to Elaine’s thoughts on McCulloch, the Whiner.

    Now I am off to get my granddaughter and travel over the river and through the woods for this grandmother no longer cooks Thanksgiving Dinner!

  146. Bob Stone says:

    Kevin,

    You make a lot of allegations but you don’t back a single one of them up with any facts or evidence.

    “The fact is, either the system has integrity or it doesn’t. Some of the actions of key players gave the appearance that it might not. Is everyone just supposed to accept the result of the system even if it turns out that the fix was in from the beginning? Is that your idea of justice?”

    Really Kevin? I’m supposed to chase you around your “feeling” that something doesn’t “smell” right? I’d ask you to quantify your “feelings” but that would require facts and evidence.

    You have a problem with the DA using the grand jury as it was designed to be used in just this situation. The “fix was in” simply because he used the grand jury as a safety valve:

    “One consideration in making this determination may be that the decision to dismiss in certain cases ought to be made by the “voice of the community” rather than the voice of the DA. In this way the DA can stand behind the action of the grand jury but, at the same time, not divulge why the case was dismissed because the proceedings are secret. Doing away with the grand jury system eliminates this safety valve. The DA will then be forced to either dismiss the case on his/her own motion prior to the hearing, or risk an acquittal in the superior court.”

    http://campus.udayton.edu/~grandjur/recent/hnygjw.htm

    Furthermore, the DOJ was an equal partner in the investigation and is still investigating the Civil Rights claim against Wilson.

    Try reading what some of those witnesses that didn’t go to the media had to say instead of assuming like a five year old that “the fix was in.”

  147. Bob Stone says:

    “I read the whole thing. I found probable cause that Darren Wilson committed a crime and after reading the questions asked by the prosecutor’s assistants and the jurors understand perfectly why they did not indict.

    Darren Wilson had to chase Mike Brown down in order to engage in self-defense. Nothing to see here. Move on. ”

    Gee Blouise; did Johnson lie about not being part of the altercation?

  148. Elaine M. says:

    Gee, could Darren Wilson have lied about anything? Is that a possibility?

  149. bettykath says:

    Elaine, He’s a cop. Cops don’t lie, except when it exonerates them.

  150. Slartibartfast says:

    Seriously Bob? We’ve been discussing this on several threads here in which the appearance of impropriety on the part of the prosecution has been brought up several times. I don’t know whether or not Officer Wilson is guilty of a crime or negligence, but it is clear that the prosecutor gave the appearance of bias (not to mention having a history of bias).

    I never said the DA did anything illegal, just that he clearly acted in the interests of Officer Wilson rather than the interests of justice. This creates a legitimate grievance for protesters (which has nothing to do with Officer Wilson or Mr. Brown in particular and everything to to with the inequities in the system that were exposed by the case) which you refuse to acknowledge in favor of conflating protesters with looters, seemingly in an attempt to delegitimize them.

    Somehow you got …assuming like a five year old that “the fix was in.” from my comment that:

    The fact is, either the system has integrity or it doesn’t. Some of the actions of key players gave the appearance that it might not. Is everyone just supposed to accept the result of the system EVEN IF it turns out that the fix was in from the beginning? Is that your idea of justice? (emphasis added)

    Just in case you don’t understand, the highlighted term means that the former clause is to be interpreted in the context of the latter clause being true. Disagreeing with my argument and explaining why you think it is wrong is fine, but using a straw man to paint me as being wrong while completely ignoring the argument I’m making is juvenile in the extreme.

    I do not assume the fix was in—I suspect that the no bill in this case was a foregone conclusion independent of Officer Wilson’s actual culpability. My suspicions are based on the appearance of bias in the process which has been extensively discussed on this blog and elsewhere. The only one I see assuming things here is you Bob.

    So let me ask the same question in a different manner: what is the appropriate recourse if it turns out that the system is rigged?

  151. Bob Stone says:

    PIAGET CRENSHAW IS AN EPIC LIAR (to the media)

    Crenshaw on August 9th to Ferguson P.D.

    “So, at the moment, where-1 mean before I did I just looked outside to make sure she was…it was her waitin’ for me and I saw a police officer.
    I don’t know name running towards this guy. I didn’t see the-the hassle at first but I did see him get out the car and run in a hurry. ”

    Crenshaw: ’cause, um, the way I heard it, he shot while he was trying to pull the guy…

    DET: Okay, I’m -I’m gonna stop ya okay?

    CRENSHAW: Oh, this first-hand? DET. Yeah-yeah-yeah. You just want first-hand free.

    DET. Not rumored just-just what you know, okay?

    CRENSHAW: Okay.

    DET. Okay, so, the officer, out of his vehicle and he is running east on
    Canfield , right?

    CRENSHAW: Uh huh.

    Crenshaw on Sep 23 On CNN

    “OK, what I saw was when the cop and Michael were, like, wrestling through the window
    it looked as if Michael was pushing off and the cop was trying to pull him in.
    Then the cop shot a fire through the window. Michael breaks away and he starts running away from the officer”

    What a liar.

  152. bettykath says:

    I know of an instance where the cop showed up at the door, woke someone up, the guy wasn’t fully awake. Cop says “you’re under arrest”. Guy says “huh? what for?” Cop says “resiting arrest.” Guy says, “no” and puts out his hands for the cuffs. Cop’s report says that the complaining witness was the one who told him he was under arrest. She was nowhere near the door and said nothing. Guy didn’t plead guilty but whatever the plea that says “I’m not guilty but lousy cop is lying and who’s going to believe me against him.” Judge believed him. Judge got probation dept report and issued a restraining order (a good deal since guy didn’t want to be anywhere near complainer). No jail, no probation.

  153. Bob Stone says:

    Kevin,

    Who are you talking to?

    When did I say that you claimed the DA did anything illegal?

    When in our conversations did I conflate protesters with looters?

    You say you made an argument; show me where.

    Meanwhile, remember that:

    Arguing is reason giving.

    Reasons are justifications or support for claims.

    Rationality is the ability to engage in reason giving.

    The alternative to reason giving is to accept or reject claims on whim or command.

    • Mike Spindell says:

      “Rationality is the ability to engage in reason giving”

      Bob,

      That is nonsensical absent ones reasoning having a basis in reality. Many irrational people have “reasons” for their actions. Then some will claim their reasons are factual, though having only a surmises relationship with reality. In others of course their reasons hold up only by defending them with the psychological defense of denial. Such as in your case when you refuse to directly answer with a credible reason for Michael Brown’s shooting, save for a scary Black shoplifter. Also as an experienced attorney you have to know that McCullough set up the Grand Jury to take the responsibility for letting Wilson off out of his hands. The indictment was a farce if McCullough didn’t believe Wilson guilty. Your error, whether via denial, or bias for police, is that you see this story in terms of your own pre-judgments and the “project” your bias onto others. Whatever gets you through the night.

  154. Bob,

    Did you see the news conference?

    It was an exercise in pure propaganda designed with smear in mind. On top of that, McCulloch didn’t even seem to know what the job of a grand jury actually is and the timing? 8:30 at night? It doesn’t take a propaganda expert or a LE professional to tell you that if avoiding trouble is your goal, that wasn’t a good choice. I’m not so sure that Crump wasn’t right when he said the prosecution could have been handled better by a 1L. I’ve been open minded until the evidence was gathered, but this prosecution? Reeks of impropriety by its sheer incompetence in execution. I am willing, however, to apply Heinlein’s Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity, but don’t discount malice. McCulloch should have stepped down from the start considering he already had a reputation for being in bed with LE. The way he handled this (amateurishly) seems to either confirm that reputation or it means he’s an idiot.

  155. Bob Stone says:

    Gene,

    I saw the news conference. And I’m also aware of a prosecutor’s duty to the court.

    If the prosecutor doesn’t think he could possibly convict the target, then he shouldn’t even bring it to the grand jury. It went to the grand jury in the manner it did simply because the grievance syndicate pushed for an indictment of racism itself using Wilson as the means to that end–even though there was absolutely no evidence of racism involved in the shooting.

    The primary witnesses are liars Gene.

    I have no comment about the timing of McCulloch’s release, since it’s irrelevant as to the existence of any case against Wilson.

  156. Bob Stone says:

    Mike,

    Your beliefs and feelings about the case are based on lies to the media. Johnson and Crenshaw lied through their teeth and you bought it hook, line and sinker.

    Your question regarding “what did Mike Brown do to deserve getting shot” is one I’d like to answer in a post; and I’m working on it now.

    But in the meanwhile I doubt you will even look at the transcript of the grand jury proceeding; much less even glance at whether the people you relied on in making your judgment of Wilson were telling the truth.

    Hell Mike, you won’t even tell me why Ben Crump hired Shawn Parcells when he already had the world renown Dr. Baden.

    And tell me Mike, where did the issue of racism enter into the picture in this shooting? What evidence have you relied on, other than a simple meme started by a black activist at the scene that day?

    The issue attached to the shooting not because of any observable facts; but because you wanted it to.

    • Mike Spindell says:

      “Your beliefs and feelings about the case are based on lies to the media. Johnson and Crenshaw lied through their teeth and you bought it hook, line and sinker.”

      Bob,
      From your first post on the issue you have claimed that those who disagree with you are mere puppets to “activists” and that any protesters are pawns, or worse. ou admitted your preference for giving the police the benefit of the doubt always. Your usual perception has been notoriously lacking in this instance and your characterizations of those who disagree with you have been unpleasant. My beliefs in this case are founded on the continual instance of Black men being killed by policeman. This is the history of this country and you are playing a pretend game with yourself that each new incident is isolated from the consistent pattern. It has you who has been obfuscating the issue and presenting newspaper reports as facts, while making value judgment about all those who disagree with you, yet consistently failing to answer their questions.

      “much less even glance at whether the people you relied on in making your judgment of Wilson were telling the truth.”

      After all these years of exchange Bob you still don’t get that I rely on no one for my opinions but myself. I assume that you don’t get it because you heavily rely on authority, even such imperfect
      ones as media reports

      “Your question regarding “what did Mike Brown do to deserve getting shot” is one I’d like to answer in a post; and I’m working on it now.”

      How nice that you are just getting around to address the key issue of this case after all these weeks of your writing, when it should have been the initial question and you have been asked it time and again, only to dance around it with straw-men avoiding he answer..

  157. Slartibartfast says:

    Bob,

    I didn’t claim that you claimed that I said the DA did anything illegal, I was just clarifying my position.

    As for reason giving, I’ve presented my positions and given my reasons for holding those positions. You have consistently avoided addressing my reasons with reasons of your own. Now, nothing says that you have to answer my arguments if you don’t want to but implying that I’m not giving reasons is ludicrous.

    I’d say more, but I think Mike already put it better than I could.

  158. Bob Stone says:

    “My beliefs in this case are founded on the continual instance of Black men being killed by policeman.”

    Then answer the question Mike.

    Where are your facts to support your assertion that race had anything to do with the shooting?

    How did Brown’s skin color alter Wilson’s chain of reasoning?

    Tell me why Wilson would have let a white 6′ 4″ man who just attacked him for his weapon to turn and charge toward him with his gun drawn?

    Accusing a man of being a racist simply to advance an agenda is morally repugnant.

  159. Bob,

    You know as well as I do that if a DA or ADA goes in to a GJ not wanting a true bill, they usually get what they want. As for “I have no comment about the timing of McCulloch’s release, since it’s irrelevant as to the existence of any case against Wilson”? Actually, it is relevant to McCulloch’s competence (or lack thereof) and the questionable GJ refusal to return a true bill based on the evidence as presented by McCulloch’s office. One could read the evidence and come to the reasonable conclusion that the only way McCulloch didn’t get a true bill is that he didn’t want one in the first place. Framed a slightly different way, Wilson would be facing charges right now. So ask yourself “would Wilson be facing charges if he wasn’t a cop?” I did. I think the answer to that is “Hell yes”. That combined with McCulloch’s reputation for being in bed with LE, the mode of the press conference (pure smear job) and the timing (clearly the best choice if riots were what you wanted)? Is what makes me say this thing reeks of impropriety and/or incompetence.

    And don’t try to sell me the Tueller “21 foot rule” either. That experiment was against armed opponents. You shoot an unarmed guy within 20 feet of you? He’s either going to be dead or not have a lot of fight in him by the time he can touch you with his fists or feet.

  160. Bob Stone says:

    Kevin,

    Your last few posts have been truly incoherent; talking at me as if I was someone else. And when I call you on it, you come off as fickle as a 13 year old girl — saying it’s all my fault.

    Perhaps a brooding vampire movie might help.

  161. Bob Stone says:

    Gene,

    ” One could read the evidence and come to the reasonable conclusion that the only way McCulloch didn’t get a true bill is that he didn’t want one in the first place.”

    How much evidence have you honestly read or are honestly familiar with? If you’re basing your judgment on anything more than the “hands up” meme, started by a racist black activist and supported primarily by two people that have been proven to be liars, I, and the rest of the world, would like to see it.

    McCulloch is not incompetent; he used the GJ as a safety valve.

    If the prosecutor doesn’t see any case he can possibly hope to win at trial, HE HAS AN ETHICAL DUTY TO REFRAIN FROM BRINGING IT.

    The grand jury was used as a safety valve against a community demanding an indictment when the evidence demanded otherwise.

    There are instances “when a prosecutor presents a case to the grand jury despite the expectation, or belief, that the grand jury will not indict. [This determination may be made because] the decision to dismiss in certain cases ought to be made by the “voice of the community” rather than the voice of the DA. In this way the DA can stand behind the action of the grand jury but, at the same time, not divulge why the case was dismissed because the proceedings are secret. Doing away with the grand jury system eliminates this safety valve. The DA will then be forced to either dismiss the case on his/her own motion prior to the hearing, or risk an acquittal in the superior court.”

    http://campus.udayton.edu/~grandjur/recent/hnygjw.htm

    • bigfatmike says:

      “How much evidence have you honestly read or are honestly familiar with?….If the prosecutor doesn’t see any case he can possibly hope of winning at trial, HE HAS AN ETHICAL DUTY TO REFRAIN FROM BRINGING IT. ”

      The question that was raised was did McCulloch treat the grand jury differently and was that treatment favorable to Wilson.

      It is clear that McCulloch did handle the grand jury differently. We know that because McCulloch told us that he would do that and he did.

      That handling of the grand jury in regard to Wilson was clearly different from the treatment of other potential defendants in other cases. And treatment was clearly favorable to Wilson.

      Presenting all the evidence was different for the handling of other cases. This was favorable to Wilson because all the evidence likely included at least some that supported Wilson’s story – we should remember how unusual it is to present evidence favorable in a grand jury.

      Further Wilson testified, which is his right. But is testimony was essentially unchallenged. This is essentially unheard of. That Wilson was allowed to testify with no attempt to vet his story is extremely, extremely favorable to Wilson.

      The irrefutable fact is that Wilson received special – favorable treatment that is unlike that given to any other potential defendant.

      Wilson may have, in fact, committed a crime, or maybe he did not. But he did get special treatment from the DA. That fact cannot be denied.

      The favorable treatment is clear regardless of where you stand on Wilson.

  162. Bob Kauten says:

    Having watched a bit of McCulloch’s presentation to the press, I don’t think that he’s incompetent, at all.
    He manipulated press leaks and the presentation of evidence to the grand jury in such a way that he got exactly the result that he wanted.
    That’s not incompetence.

  163. Bob,

    I read a good chunk of the transcript last night (insomnia). Presented with no framing whatsoever, the evidence is non-conclusory at best. As far as the “safety valve” comment goes though? I’m going to call bullshit on that. He used the GJ as a substitute for a trial. Note to that I attributed that tactical action of the unframed evidence dump as attributable to either stupidity, malice or some combination thereof. I tend to think the later based upon his peculiar “press conference” and impeccably poor timing. He was smart enough to get the result he wanted (no true bill) but either too stupid or too arrogant to think his maneuvering wouldn’t be transparent (reminds me of someone else I know). You combine that with his history that should have ab initio called for him to recuse himself from this case? I don’t see how one can rationally call the process here anything but intentionally biased for Davis.

    A fair hearing in court means both sides have a chance to be heard and to win or lose on the merits. By manipulating the GJ process, McCulloch short circuited that process. By attempting to manipulate the media and maximize the fallout, he showed his biased intent.

    I’m upset that an unarmed man may have been killed wrongfully by an officer of the law.

    I’m pissed off that an officer of the court is seemingly acting to shield him from further scrutiny.

    That is as big a fubar move as any made in this case so far. It not only denies a fair hearing, it tarnishes the reputation of both the cops and the courts. It was a move that put the office holder(s) before their civic duty as required in the job description. It smacks of impropriety and police protectionism politics. But justice? Justice has not been served.

  164. Bob Stone says:

    “I don’t see how one can rationally call the process here anything but intentionally biased for Davis.”

    That’s the second time you mentioned a “Davis” Who is Davis?

    “A fair hearing in court means both sides have a chance to be heard and to win or lose on the merits. By manipulating the GJ process, McCulloch short circuited that process. By attempting to manipulate the media and maximize the fallout, he showed his biased intent.”

    What do you mean by “both sides”? I surely hope you’re not referring to the Brown family.

    • bigfatmike says:

      “What do you mean by “both sides”? I surely hope you’re not referring to the Brown family.”

      Are you being intentionally disingenuous.

      We would like to hear a real prosecutor make the best case possible and Wilson’s defense attorneys make the best defense possible.

      Seems pretty simple and obvious to me.

  165. Bob Stone says:

    “But is testimony was essentially unchallenged.”

    Was Dorian Johnson challenged?

    Absolutely not. His depiction of the events at the car and in the robbery are fantastical; and unchallenged.

  166. Bob,

    Brain cloud and multi-tasking. Read “Wilson” for “Davis”.

  167. bron98 says:

    Bob:

    There is nothing which will satisfy either side. If you look at the world one way, Wilson is guilty, if you look at it another way he is not guilty of murder.

    I am glad I am not a cop. I would never be one either. Their lives dont seem to count.

    One of them was going to die that day. Wilson was just favored by the gods.

  168. Bron,

    You mistake what I find disturbing about this as for being for one side or another.

    I’m upset that the process was biased in such a way as to prevent a full hearing on the merits. Of all the parties involved in this? The one that pisses me off is McCulloch. He put his thumb on the scale with his choice in tactics.

  169. swarthmoremom says:

    “I’m upset that the process was biased in such a way as to prevent a full hearing on the merits. ” Gene H Yes, that is the travesty.

  170. Slartibartfast says:

    Bron,

    If you are concerned with economics, especially the economics of your own small business, and you are looking at voting in your own best interests then you will be voting a Democratic straight ticket.

    http://www.amazon.com/Theyre-Not-Even-Close-Democratic/dp/1880026090/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1339027537&sr=8-9

    Bob,

    Since no one else seems to have a problem understanding the points I’m making (and several other people have made the same or similar points), I’m going to assume that your lack of understanding is due to your own egregious misconceptions rather than anything on my part. I’m sure that what I said doesn’t make any sense in the context of the straw man positions you seem to think I hold, it is perfectly reasonable in light of the arguments that I am actually making.

    Mike S. looks at the past and sees a pattern of white cops killing black men with no repercussions. Gene looks at the present and sees the grand jury being intentionally manipulated in Officer Wilson’s favor, with the DA acting as the advocate of the accused rather than the advocate of the victim (i.e. the law) that he is supposed to be. I look to the future and ask what will be different the next time something like this happens—and, because of people like you who are more interested in protecting their dog from consequences than achieving justice, I suspect that nothing but the details will be different the next time something like this occurs. You, on the other hand, look through your rose-colored glasses and seize on anything which helps bring about your desired outcome regardless of the merits.

    When people talk about corruption in the process, you want to focus myopically on inconsistencies in the testimony of witnesses—those that don’t support Officer Wilson, anyway. When people talk about the mistakes Officer Wilson made, all you seem to be able to do is to blame the victim. When people want to talk about a theory which encompasses the totality of the evidence, you restrict the scope to snapshots which are consistent with the story you want to spin and avoid other elements that contradict it.

    I’d like to say that you are incoherent, but it is perfectly clear what you are doing: embodying all of the worst cliches of a defense attorney.

    One again, Bob eschews arguing the facts or the law and pounds on the table. Why is that?

    • bigfatmike says:

      “One again, Bob eschews arguing the facts or the law and pounds on the table. Why is that?”

      Ummmmmm….he does not realize that we see through him?

  171. bigfatmike says:

    “One again, Bob eschews arguing the facts or the law and pounds on the table. Why is that?”

    Ummmm….. He does not realize when he avoids giving an answer that tells us all we need to know about his position?

  172. bigfatmike says:

    “One again, Bob eschews arguing the facts or the law and pounds on the table. Why is that?”

    Ummmm…….he does not realize that when he calls names that reflects more on him than the person he attacks?

  173. Elaine M. says:

    Amid Conflicting Accounts, Trusting Darren Wilson

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-grand-jury-weighed-mass-of-evidence-much-of-it-conflicting.html?_r=0

    Excerpt:
    In an unusual step, Mr. McCulloch had said he would present all known witnesses and evidence and instead of recommending an indictment, as is usually the case, let the jurors decide for themselves what if any charges to bring.

    The officer’s testimony, delivered without the cross-examination of a trial in the earliest phase of the three-month inquiry, was the only direct account of the fatal encounter. It appeared to form the spine of a narrative that unfolded before the jurors over three months, buttressed, the prosecutors said, by the most credible witnesses, forensic evidence and three autopsies.

    But the gentle questioning of Officer Wilson revealed in the transcripts, and the sharp challenges prosecutors made to witnesses whose accounts seemed to contradict his narrative, have led some to question whether the process was as objective as Mr. McCulloch claims…

    In some cases the questions seemed designed to help Officer Wilson meet the conditions for self-defense, with a prosecutor telling him at one point: “You felt like your life was in jeopardy” followed by the question, “And use of deadly force was justified at that point in your opinion?”

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