By Elaine Magliaro
Measles outbreak fuels vaccine debate
According to Face the Nation, Tom Frieden, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), said “his agency is ‘very concerned’ about the possibility of a large measles outbreak in the U.S. because of the growing number of people who have not been vaccinated against the disease.” Frieden said, “What we’ve seen is, as over the last few years, a small but growing number of people have not been vaccinated. That number is building up among young adults in society, and that makes us vulnerable,” Frieden said during his interview on CBS’ “Face the Nation” on Sunday. Frieden added, “We have to make sure that measles doesn’t get a foothold in the U.S. It’s been actually eliminated from this country for 15 years. All of our cases result, ultimately, from individuals who have traveled and brought it back here.”
Rebecca Kaplan (Face the Nation):
There are at least 102 reported cases of measles in 14 states, according to CDC statistics. Frieden said there will likely be more cases going forward, and the CDC is taking “aggressive public health action” to identify contacts and isolate those infected in order to stop the spread.
Frieden said that measles is preventable. He noted that the best way to do that is with the vaccine, which he said is “safe and effective.” Kaplan said that there is “a 92 percent vaccination rate in the United States, but the number of unvaccinated children is higher in certain states.” She added that in California, “where an outbreak of the disease has been linked to Disney theme parks in the southern part of the state, 8 percent of kindergarteners fail to get the required immunizations against measles, mumps and rubella. In Pennsylvania, that number rises to 15 percent of kindergarteners.”
The Jacks Family and Their Concern about Their Two Young Children Contracting Measles
Elizabeth Cohen and Debra Goldschmidt (CNN) reported a story today about Dr. Tim Jacks and his wife Anna being worried that her ten-month-old son Eli may have contracted measles from a woman at a Phoenix Children’s Hospital clinic last week. Cohen and Goldschmidt said that Jacks’s son has been sick before, but this time it’s different.
Cohen and Goldschmidt:
Last week Eli was at a Phoenix Children’s Hospital clinic with a woman who had the measles, which spreads easily from person to person. Now he’s showing signs of the virus, such as runny nose and cough and fatigue. At 10 months old, Eli is too young to get vaccinated and would be especially vulnerable to serious complications of measles, such as deafness and brain damage or even death. But his parents have an even bigger worry. If Eli does have the measles, he could give it to his 3-year-old sister, Maggie, who has leukemia.
The two authors of the CNN article said that Maggie is feeling fine–but her parents “know that with her immune system wiped out by chemotherapy she’s even more vulnerable than her brother to complications.” Anna Jacks said, “My biggest fear is that I’ll lose my child, or that she’ll become deaf. My family has been through enough with cancer. I don’t want her to go through anything else.”
Cohen and Goldschmidt reported that, according to Arizona health officials, “the woman at the clinic who put the Jacks children in danger was herself infected by members of a family that doesn’t vaccinate and got measles during a visit to Disneyland, where the outbreak began more than a month ago.”
Dr. Tim Jacks, Maggie and Eli’s father, wrote a blog post in which he expressed his feelings to the infected family who went to the clinic. In his post Jacks said, “Towards you, unvaccinating parent, I feel anger and frustration at your choices. Why would you knowingly expose anyone to your sick unvaccinated child after recently visiting Disneyland? That was a boneheaded move.” He added, “Your poor choices don’t just affect your child. They affect my family and many more like us. Please forgive my sarcasm. I am upset and just a little bit scared.”
Anna Jacks spoke with CNN. She had a message for the family, too. Jacks said, “Your children don’t live in a little bubble. They live in a big bubble and my children live inside that big bubble with your children. If you don’t want to vaccinate your children, fine, but don’t take them to Disneyland.”
Anti-vaxxer Dr. Jack Wolfson Speaks Out
Dr. Jack Wolfson, an Arizona cardiologist who refuses to vaccinate his two young sons, said it’s the Jacks family who should keep themselves at home, not him. Wolfson said he felt that the family “that didn’t vaccinate and endangered the Jacks children did nothing wrong.” He added, “It’s not my responsibility to inject my child with chemicals in order for [a child like Maggie] to be supposedly healthy. As far as I’m concerned, it’s very likely that her leukemia is from vaccinations in the first place.” Wolfson continued, “I’m not going to sacrifice the well-being of my child. My child is pure. It’s not my responsibility to be protecting their child.”
When CNN asked Wolfson if he could live with himself if his unvaccinated child got another child gravely ill, he replied, “I could live with myself easily. It’s an unfortunate thing that people die, but people die. I’m not going to put my child at risk to save another child.”
Wolfson reportedly blamed the Jacks family for taking Maggie to the clinic for care. He said, “If a child is so vulnerable like that, they shouldn’t be going out into society.” Tom Frieden said that among the parents who opt out of vaccinations citing a personal belief, “most of them don’t have that deeply held concern.” He added, “They just may not recognize that measles is still with us, that it’s serious, and that not getting your kid vaccinated is not only a risk for your own kid, but puts other vulnerable kids in your community at risk.”
CNN report on measles in Arizona
**********
From Vaccines.gov:
Immunization protects others you care about. Children in the U.S. still get vaccine-preventable diseases. In fact, we have seen resurgences of measles and whooping cough (pertussis) over the past few years. In 2010 the U.S. had over 21,000 cases of whooping cough reported and 26 deaths, most in children younger than 6 months. Unfortunately, some babies are too young to be completely vaccinated and some people may not be able to receive certain vaccinations due to severe allergies, weakened immune systems from conditions like leukemia, or other reasons. To help keep them safe, it is important that you and your children who are able to get vaccinated are fully immunized. This not only protects your family, but also helps prevent the spread of these diseases to your friends and loved ones.
Immunization protects future generations. Vaccines have reduced and, in some cases, eliminated many diseases that killed or severely disabled people just a few generations ago. For example, smallpox vaccination eradicated that disease worldwide. Your children don’t have to get smallpox shots any more because the disease no longer exists. By vaccinating children against rubella (German measles), the risk that pregnant women will pass this virus on to their fetus or newborn has been dramatically decreased, and birth defects associated with that virus no longer are seen in the United States. If we continue vaccinating now, and vaccinating completely, parents in the future may be able to trust that some diseases of today will no longer be around to harm their children in the future.
**********
Excerpt from Endangering the Herd: The case for suing parents who don’t vaccinate their kids—or criminally charging them by Jed Lipinski (Slate):
Unvaccinated children threaten the herd. Take the San Diego measles outbreak of 2008. After unknowingly contracting the disease on a trip to Switzerland, an unvaccinated 7-year-old boy infected 11 other unvaccinated kids, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The majority of the cases occurred in kids whose parents had requested personal belief exemptions (or PBEs) through the state of California, one of 17 states to allow them. But three of the infected were either too young or medically unable to be vaccinated. And overall, 48 children too young to be vaccinated were quarantined, at an average cost to the family of $775 per child. The CDC noted that all 11 cases were “linked epidemiologically” to the 7-year-old boy and that the outbreak response cost the public sector $10,376 per case.
Today, several states blame a rise in preventable diseases on the declining child vaccination rates. In Michigan, less than 72 percent of children have received their state-mandated measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccines. In New York, as Caplan noted in his blog post, pockets of Brooklyn’s Hasidic Jewish community are experiencing a mini measles epidemic. Thirty cases have been confirmed so far. According to Dr. Yu Shia Lin of Maimonides Medical Center, some members of the community avoid the measles vaccine because they think it causes autism. The most visible proponent of this idea, former Playboy Playmate Jenny McCarthy, will receive a giant new platform for her viewpoints when she joins the daytime gossipfest The View on Sept. 9.
The belief that the MMR vaccine causes autism goes back to a 1998 study published in the Lancet by a British gastroenterologist named Andrew Wakefield. In 2010, after years of criticism, the journal finally retracted Wakefield’s study, announcing that it was “utterly clear, without any ambiguity at all, that the statements in the paper were utterly false.” Britain’s General Medical Council later revoked Wakefield’s medical license, noting that he’d failed to disclose his role as a paid consultant to lawyers representing parents who thought vaccines had harmed their kids. The CDC makes clear there is no connection between vaccines and autism.
Yet this dangerous idea persists. Often, it persists among people who are simply doing what they think is best for their kids. Which is why it’s necessary to take extra measures to ensure nonvaccinators understand the risk they pose to other people’s children.
**********
How do you feel about vaccinating children? Do you think schools should child require parents to have their children vaccinated against diseases, such as measles, whooping cough, and polio?
SOURCES
Anti-Vaccine Doctor: I Don’t Care If My KidsMake Others Gravely Sick (VIDEO) (TPM)
Arizona measles exposure worries parents of at-risk kids (CNN)
Amid measles outbreak, anti-vaccine doctor revels in his notoriety (Washington Post)
CDC “very concerned” about potential for large measles outbreak (Face the Nation)
Anti-vaxxer doctor leaves public health to others: ‘My child is pure’ (Raw Story)
Five Important Reasons to Vaccinate Your Child (Vaccines.gov)
Nicole Plyler Fisk
Gene Howington
FFS Guest Blogger
Joy of Fishes
Chuck Stanley
shortfinals
Terry Welshans
ann li-summers
wordcloud9
Flowers For Socrates 
Wow! This cardiologist seems like a really friendly fellow. It is hard to believe that as a doctor he cannot understand the need for vaccinations. Very sad.
rafflaw,
Imagine a doctor saying that children who are vulnerable “shouldn’t be going out into society.” Nice guy, huh?
My Governor is afflicted with “FOOT IN MOUTH DISEASE”:
“By JILL COLVIN, Associated Press
CAMBRIDGE, England (AP) — New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, a likely Republican candidate for president, said Monday that parents should have some choice on whether to vaccinate their children.
Christie’s comments, made after a tour of a biomedical research center during a three-day trade mission to the United Kingdom, come as a measles outbreak centered in California has sickened more than 100 people in the U.S.”
http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2015/02/02/gops-christie-parents-should-have-choice-in-vaccinations
eniobob,
That’s not his only medical problem. He also has “fat in the gut” disease.
😉
OUCH!!!! :=)
Personally, I am convinced of the value of vaccination; however, I don’t support having government force people to have medical treatments and procedures. I think the better course is to promote public education on known risks and benefits of vaccinating and to ensure that everyone who wants vaccinations can get them.
Another person getting their beak wet on the subject:
First of all, many of the children who have come down with measles are vaccinated. MSM reports don’t tell you that Secondly, many vaccines have adulterations in them, e.g. mercury. I’ll see if I can find some links for y’all
Kind of like second-hand smoke except the threat to the whole is immediate.
blouise,
I’m of the “polio generation.” I’m thankful that Jonas Salk developed his vaccine.
That’s a good analogy. I think about the young children, cancer victims and other people with weak immune systems who might contract a preventable disease because of the disinformation spread by people like Playboy Playmate Jenny McCarthy.
Anti-Vaccine Doctor Planned to Profit from Scare
JAN 11, 2011
http://news.discovery.com/human/health/anti-vaccine-doctor-planned-to-profit-from-scare.htm
Excerpt:
Almost exactly one year ago, on Jan. 28, 2010, Andrew Wakefield, the doctor whose 1998 research sparked international concern over whether childhood vaccines cause autism, was found guilty by a British panel of acting unethically in his research on autism. Shortly afterward, The Lancet, which originally published his findings, reviewed his original study and issued a complete retraction.
In May Wakefield was stripped of his license to practice medicine in the United Kingdom. Then last week an editorial in the BMJ (formerly known as the British Medical Journal) called his actions not merely poor research but “deliberate fraud.”
Just when it seems the scandal can’t get any worse, it does.
According to new research published in today’s BMJ, Wakefield’s motive for the fraud was money — and lots of it. Wakefield “planned secret businesses intended to make huge sums of money, in Britain and America, from his now-discredited allegations,” according to a BMJ press release.
Conspiracy theorists are fond of saying “follow the money,” and that’s exactly what investigative journalist Brian Deer did.
In “Secrets of the MMR scare,” the second part of a BMJ series of special reports on the Wakefield scandal, Deer shows how Wakefield’s institution, the Royal Free Medical School in London, supported him as he sought to exploit the vaccine scare for his personal financial gain.
Deer reveals how Wakefield met with medical school managers to discuss joint business deals even while the first child to be fully investigated in his research was still in the hospital. Wakefield planned to make a fortune developing his own supposedly safer vaccines and diagnostic testing kits once the public’s confidence in the safety of current vaccines was shaken.
There is no “debate” about vaccinations. It’s a “debate” like global warming, or evolution.
Rational folks get vaccinated. Anti-vaxx has become a religion for the deluded.
The spread of disease is a matter of public health. The government has a responsibility to coerce its citizens to avoid epidemics. The government coerces you to stop for red lights. You might kill yourself and other people, if you don’t. Nope, no freedom of choice. Too bad.
Refusal to vaccinate against serious diseases endangers the lives of your fellow citizens. I don’t include flu as a serious disease, here. Flu can be serious for the weaker among us, so you’re still being extremely selfish, if you don’t get a flu shot.
I’ve mentioned this on other threads. When smallpox was still rampant abroad, you weren’t asked whether you wanted smallpox vaccination, when you left the USA. You got vaccinated, or you didn’t leave. Public health. I doubt anyone seriously asked parents whether they wanted polio vaccine for their kids. We pretty much all took it, and polio stopped, in this country.
Now, there’s resistance to vaccinations. The internet’s instant communication allows stupid people to band together. They have.
Yes, of course the opinions of a collection of village idiots are as valuable as the opinions of educated folks. Just ask the village idiots.
A letter by Roald Dahl about the death of his daughter Olivia caused by measles, published as part of a PSA pamphlet in 1988:
We had almost eradicated a number of childhood illnesses until the conspiracy theorists got into the act, starting with that fraud Wakefield.
Mercury? You get more mercury in a salmon croquette than a shot. Strawman of the worst kind. Most strawmen won’t kill your child or leave them disabled. That one will.
Refusal to get a child vaccinated against these diseases should be considered child abuse, unless there is a valid medical reason, such as compromised immune system. In fact, it is the kids with compromised immune systems that makes the need for vaccinating every child mandatory. Religious or other belief systems present an invalid argument. They aren’t valid arguments when sexual or physical abuse is considered. Medical should be no different.
There is a reason the average life expectancy for adults was about 41 years before vaccines were discovered.
Retracted autism study an ‘elaborate fraud,’ British journal finds
By the CNN Wire Staff
January 5, 2011
http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/
Excerpt:
(CNN) — A now-retracted British study that linked autism to childhood vaccines was an “elaborate fraud” that has done long-lasting damage to public health, a leading medical publication reported Wednesday.
An investigation published by the British medical journal BMJ concludes the study’s author, Dr. Andrew Wakefield, misrepresented or altered the medical histories of all 12 of the patients whose cases formed the basis of the 1998 study — and that there was “no doubt” Wakefield was responsible.
“It’s one thing to have a bad study, a study full of error, and for the authors then to admit that they made errors,” Fiona Godlee, BMJ’s editor-in-chief, told CNN. “But in this case, we have a very different picture of what seems to be a deliberate attempt to create an impression that there was a link by falsifying the data.”
Britain stripped Wakefield of his medical license in May. “Meanwhile, the damage to public health continues, fueled by unbalanced media reporting and an ineffective response from government, researchers, journals and the medical profession,” BMJ states in an editorial accompanying the work.
Speaking to CNN’s “Anderson Cooper 360,” Wakefield said his work has been “grossly distorted” and that he was the target of “a ruthless, pragmatic attempt to crush any attempt to investigate valid vaccine safety concerns.”
The now-discredited paper panicked many parents and led to a sharp drop in the number of children getting the vaccine that prevents measles, mumps and rubella. Vaccination rates dropped sharply in Britain after its publication, falling as low as 80% by 2004. Measles cases have gone up sharply in the ensuing years…
According to BMJ, Wakefield received more than 435,000 pounds ($674,000) from the lawyers. Godlee said the study shows that of the 12 cases Wakefield examined in his paper, five showed developmental problems before receiving the MMR vaccine and three never had autism.
Here’s an excerpt from vaccination history:
“1796: Edward Jenner discovers vaccination
British physician, Dr Edward Jenner (pictured), discovered vaccination in its modern form and proved to the scientific community that it worked.
1803: Royal Jennerian Institute founded
Support for vaccination grew. Jenner was awarded government funding, and in 1803 the Royal Jennerian Institute was founded. Vaccination became popular throughout Europe and, soon after, the US.
1870s: Violent opposition to vaccination
Although vaccination was taken up enthusiastically by many, there was some violent opposition as it became more widespread. People found it hard to believe that it really worked. They also felt that it took away people’s civil liberties, particularly when it was compulsory.”
So, we’ve come full-circle back to 1870s fear and superstition. Oh, and “civil liberties.” How nice. As with several “civil liberties,” will the rest of us be allowed the “civil liberty” of life, while you jokers play your selfish games?
The Chinese are credited with developing variolation, which is a form of primitive vaccination, in 900 A.D.
So, basically, anti-vaxxers believe that, for the last 1100 years or so, vaccines haven’t worked, and are actually deleterious. 900 A.D. is Medieval times, so that medical technology is unproven? Then why are any of us alive? Explanations should be hilarious.
I just have a problem with willful ignorance, AKA “stupidity.” My bad.
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/pages/the-history-of-vaccination.aspx
British doctor who inspired worldwide vaccine scare banned
By Sal Gentile
May 25, 2010
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/health/british-doctor-behind-autism-vaccine-scare-banned/983/
Excerpt:
Andrew Wakefield began his career in the 1980s as a gastric surgeon from Bath, England, who followed his parents, a neurologist and general practitioner, into the field.
Now he is one of the most vilified, and perhaps most influential, doctors in the world.
Wakefield published a blockbuster report in The Lancet in 1998 claiming evidence of a link between autism and early-childhood vaccination. The findings sparked a worldwide debate over the safety of inoculating children against diseases like the measles and inspired a health scare that persists to this day — including among medical professionals.
Just as recently as last week, a doctor at a panel event in Lake Delton, Wisconsin advised parents there against vaccinating their children.
“I think there is a direct link between autism and vaccines,” said the doctor, Mayer Eisenstein, who has been sued by parents claiming his policies harmed their children. “The bottom line is all vaccines cause neurological damage.”
The source of that information, Wakefield’s study, has since been disproved by the wider medical community. Wakefield, too, has been discredited.
And now he has been banned.
On Monday Britain’s medical council stripped Wakefield of his license, saying he had “abused his position of trust” and “brought the medical profession into disrepute,” according to The Telegraph. The council called Wakefield “dishonest,” “misleading,” and “irresponsible.”
The move came just as yet another study, this time in the journal Pediatrics, found no evidence to support the claim that immunization affects a child’s development. Where Wakefield’s study examined just 12 children, the report in Pediatrics followed more than 1,000 children who had received the recommended vaccinations on time, received them late or never received them at all.
OK, last one, from The Onion, then I’ll stop:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/measles-epidemic-2015-a-timeline-of-the-outbreak,37870/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:2:Default
Thanks, Bob! Loved this part from The Onion article:
– December 15, 2014: Measles outbreak in Southern California reduces San Diego classroom to manageable size
– January 10, 2015: Infected Beckwith family pushes through the pain for a second day at Disneyland because they spent 900 goddamn dollars for five two-day passes
Elaine,
I can’t imagine where our generation would be if parents had not given the Salk vaccine. My brother had polio as a child and I have a cousin who is still in braces.
Our gentle readers may wish to peruse this site:
How Do Vaccines Cause Autism
Don’t Want To Vaccinate Your Kid? You Should Get Fined $5,000
By Andrea Marcotte
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/dont-want-to-vaccinate-your-kid-you-should-be-fined-5000-dollars
Excerpt:
It seems that anti-vaccination advocates are immoveable. As in, they cannot be moved by rational arguments based on evidence. They weren’t moved when Dr. Andrew Wakefield, who authored the discredited paper linking autism to vaccines, lost his license to practice medicine. Retracting that paper, originally published in the Lancet, didn’t move them, either. They clearly are not moved by appeals to the public good. The recent outbreaks of whooping cough and measles don’t seem to be moving the needle much, either, as the New York Times reports that anti-vaxxers are digging in their heels, denying responsibility, and minimizing the dangers of the various diseases they have helped usher back when medical science thought they were nearly over.
The worst part is that it appears anti-vaccination parents can’t even be moved by concern for their own children’s welfare. Sure, they talk a big game about how much they love their children, but all too often we see anti-vaccination parents exposing their kids to harm rather than admit that they are wrong about vaccination. The New York Times article, for instance, describes a mother named Crystal McDonald whose daughter asked for a measles shot so she could stay in school, only to have her mother refuse by saying, “I’d rather you miss an entire semester than you get the shot.” Another parent admitted her son had already endured chicken pox and whooping cough. There have been reports nationwide of parents deliberately exposing children to chicken pox instead of letting them be vaccinated, even though 11,000 children a year were hospitalized for chickenpox in the years before the vaccine was developed.
That old saying, “you can’t reason a person out of a position that they didn’t reason themselves into,” applies here. The anti-vaccination trend is, at its heart, less about real concerns about “toxins” and more an expression of identity by the parents. The mentality seems to be that vaccines are for the children of hoi polloi, but their family will use more elite methods of disease protection, such as breast milk and organic foods. “[M]others see their own intensive mothering practices— particularly around feeding, nutrition, and natural living—as an alternate and superior means of supporting their children’s immunity,” sociologist Jennifer Reich argued in 2014 paper on this subject. “My child is pure,” said Dr. Jack Wolfson of Arizona in a CNN interview justifying his decision not to vaccinate. The fact that these elite methods don’t actually work doesn’t matter.
It’s not just that anti-vaccination is selfish. It’s selfishness for its own sake, a way for snobs to distinguish themselves from the vaccinating masses. Anti-vaccination is tailormade for deeply selfish people, because it gives them a chance to show off how superior they think they are while shifting the cost of their choice on other people, from their own children to the beleaguered school officials and pediatricians who have to deal with them.
Chuck,
I prefer…
Concerned about formaldehyde in vaccines?
(what can I say, I love a good infographic)
VIDEO: Fox Host Calls Out Anti-Vaccine Parents: ‘You’re Science Deniers!’
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/shep-smith-anti-vaccination-video
Fox News host Shep Smith slammed parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids as “science deniers” on Monday during his show.
He made the remark during a segment about President Obama’s call for parents to vaccinate their children in light of a growing national measles outbreak.
Addressing vaccine skeptics directly, Smith said, “Hello, science? A lot of you want to talk about science deniers. That’s what you are, people, you non-vaxxers: You’re science deniers! That’s it!”
“A small minority of parents refuse vaccines for their children, citing all kinds of weirdness, including a possible link to autism which science says does not exist,” he said witheringly.
“Anti-vaxxers are hurting all the other little children by not letting little Johnny and little Janie get their shots,” Smith concluded. “Get your shots. C’mon now.”
Christie breaks with Obama on vaccines, says parents should weigh options
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/02/christie_breaks_with_obama_on_vaccines_says_parent.html#incart_river
What the folks here(NJ) are saying.
Rand Paul: Vaccines Can Lead to ‘Mental Disorders’
“Republican Sen. Rand Paul is standing by his statement that most vaccinations should be “voluntary,” telling CNBC that a parent’s choice not to vaccinate a child is “an issue of freedom.”
In an interview with the network Monday, Paul said that vaccines are “a good thing” but that parents “should have some input” into whether or not their children must get them.
And he gave credence to the idea – disputed by the majority of the scientific community – that vaccination can lead to mental disabilities.
“I have heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines,” he said.
Paul’s comments came the same day that Gov. Chris Christie said that parents should have “a measure of choice” in whether children are vaccinated. The New Jersey governor, who — like Paul — is considering a 2016 run, later issued a statement clarifying that he believes that “there is no question” that children should be vaccinated for diseases like measles.
Earlier Monday, Paul said on Laura Ingraham’s radio show that “most” vaccines should be voluntary.”
– Carrie Dann NBC News Sounds like his dad……
“There is no “debate” about vaccinations. It’s a “debate” like global warming, or evolution.
Rational folks get vaccinated. Anti-vaxx has become a religion for the deluded.”
I am no Luddite and I generally favor vaccines. I do agree that in the case for vaccines for childhood diseases the evidence supports the importance of having children vaccinated.
But I don’t think I can agree with the idea that adults should accept vaccination without question.
It is my understanding that there are serious questions regarding the anthrax vaccine which is generally reserved for military personnel. Most civilian will never face that choice. But the last I heard that is an example where benefits and potential harm should be carefully considered.
Another example from recent history is the HPV vaccine. Some of you may not know that HPV is an std that may cause cancer decades after infection. There has been an approved vaccine for perhaps a decade or so. My guess is that by now safety and efficacy had be demonstrated through actual use.
But this particular vaccine offers an historical example of what I consider to be over enthusiasm and questionable judgment by government officials.
Several years ago I was fortunate enough to hear on NPR the governor of Texas and representatives of the vaccine manufacture advocate legislation that would require that all school age girls in Texas be vaccinated. At that time they claimed safety of vaccine was demonstrated by the 6 months (!!!) of actual field experience.
They were advocating required vaccination of every girl with a very new vaccine for a disease that most would not encounter for a decade after vaccination and which would cause problems for only a small proportion several decades after exposure to the virus.
Again I am not anti vaccine. But I see no need to rush vaccinating everyone for a disease that essentially no one will encounter for approximately a decade. Clearly, the vaccine could be deferred with no harm. An easy and effective alternative policy would have been to allow parents to choose and re-consider mandatory vaccination a few years later.
I am sure we could find other examples of vaccines and questionable official judgment – the swine flue vaccine comes to mind. Vaccines offer great benefits. But every vaccine and situation is different. All vaccines have side effects, some of which can be devastating to the unfortunate, susceptible individual.
My point is not that vaccines are bad. The point is that government officials do not always used good judgment when they consider policies.
It is always our duty to evaluate the facts and consider risks and benefits. In the case of HPV vaccine in Texas there was essentially zero risk to deferring vaccination a few years. Why the rush. Was the urgency to require vaccination base on good public health policy or political bragging rights, or corporate profits?
Andy Borowitz, comedian, has piled on:
“What a bunch of morons.”
— Dr. Jonas Salk, rolling in grave
“One discouraging thing about life in America circa 2015 is that we are now “debating” things like the benefits of vaccines which are in fact undebatable.”
-I think he stole that one from me, yesterday
bigfatmike:
very good synthesis of the issue.
I fall on the side of individual choice but I vaccinated my children and would do it again.
BFM,
No, you’re right, no one should accept any public policy without question.
You’re using an example concerning vaccine use from Texas.
Governor Rick Perry?
The folks that don’t believe in anthropogenic Global Warming, Evolution, those folks?
Yes, we need discussion about any public policy, by educated adults.
That isn’t what we have, in this country.
We have morons elected by superstitious troglodytes.
Perry, and oil men from Texas, don’t know a thing about intelligent public policy.
I don’t know about the correct age to dispense HPV vaccine to people, but I could guess before they begin having sex. With the level of ignorance and poverty in Texas, I’d guess that a lot of “women” are having sex in elementary school. That’s horrid. I’d rather not think about whom those “women” are having sex with. Probably not little boys.
Sex education, is, after all, the work of the devil. I suspect, with sex education for adults and kids, we might not need HPV vaccination in elementary school. But that’s not happening.
I do know who to ask about such vaccination matters. The Center for Disease Control (the bane of the NRA), and National Institutes of Health come to mind.
Educated adults.
@Bob Kauten: “The folks that don’t believe in anthropogenic Global Warming, Evolution, those folks? Yes, we need discussion about any public policy, by educated adults. That isn’t what we have, in this country. We have morons elected by superstitious troglodytes.”
So which comedy club are you and Andy appearing at next? If it is any where close I might drive over and catch the act. You guys are crackin’ me up – well, after Rick Perry whos had gotta be one of my all time favs.
Help, I can’t keep up with Andy Borowitz! This just in:
“Christie Urges More Balanced View of Bubonic Plague
LONDON – New Jersey Governor Chris Christie waded into controversy again on Monday as he urged Americans to have a “more tolerant” view of the Bubonic Plague, an epidemic which wiped out millions in the Middle Ages. “I think because it was called the Black Death, it got kind of a bad rap,” he said in London, a city ravaged by the disease. “People should be more open-minded about it, I think.” While Christie said he would not personally want to contract the fatal illness, he added, “Whether or not you catch the Bubonic Plague really should be left up to every family.” He added that eliminating rats who carry the Bubonic Plague “might be violating the civil rights of those rats.” His remarks echoed those of Sen. Rand Paul (R-Kentucky), who earlier in the day made positive comments about the Black Death but was harshly critical of electricity, running water and the wheel.”
I used to live in NM. They still have a few cases of Bubonic Plague, every year.
Bfm,
I agree about the anthrax vaccine. In addition, I do believe we should question government mandates. That said, I believe children should be vaccinated against diseases like polio and measles and DPT. I had never gotten a flu shot until a few years ago. My doctor recommended I get one because I was caring for my infant granddaughter.
*****
My favorite wacky politician is from Texas like Rick Perry. That would be Louie Gohmert.
Perry and Gohmert! What a pair! Hope and Crosby, Martin and Lewis, Perry and Gohmert. I can’t wait to see ‘Perry and Gohmert road to Bali’, ‘Perry and Gohmert road to Utopia’, ‘Perry and Gohmert road to Washington’ – uh oh that one might be trouble.
Well they still crack me up.
They are not so funny if you live there and they represent you. lol
actually dc has a prohibition against killing rats. they send them over to virginia.
Click to access Wildlife%20Protection%20Act%20of%202010.pdf
According to some blogs, the educated simply get in the way of making government work for the blue collar types and the liberalism that often accompanies a higher education is the bane of business everywhere.
Just sayin’.
It’s of course total bullshit, but I’m just sayin’.
“[E]xperience hath shewn, that even under the best forms, those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny; and it is believed that the most effectual means of preventing this would be, to illuminate, as far as practicable, the minds of the people at large,…” – Thomas Jefferson, “Bill for the More General Diffusion of Knowledge”, Dec. 1778.
This quote from the article identifies ignorant parents at its core. “You can be so privileged that you’re underprivileged, so blessed with choices that you choose to be a fool, so “informed” that you’re misinformed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/opinion/sunday/frank-bruni-disneyland-measles-and-madness.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0
general difusion of knowledge would be a good thing.
I am all for reading Marx and Engles as long as John Locke and Frederic Bastiat are read as well.
The left has had a virtual strangle hold on the disemination of knowledge in this country for almost 100 years.
Taxes should be voluntary.
Sanitation, particularly in restaurants, should be voluntary.
Banks and stock markets should be unregulated.
Laissez-faire capitalism should regulate the market.
Any discrimination against ethnic groups is my business, not yours.
High-school education should be voluntary.
Drivers’ licenses and insurance should be voluntary.
Public health, including vaccinations, should be up to the individual.
Ebola patients should be free to travel.
Pollution regulations should be mere suggestions.
I should keep all of my hard-earned money.
Gun and dynamite ownership should be unregulated.
No one should tell me what to do, ever.
Suffering of other people is not my problem.
Survival of the fittest.
Except, no.
We don’t follow public policy as written by four-year-old children.
bron,
No, actually, you have it backward.
Educated people are regarded as “leftists” and “progressives” by uneducated people.
And uneducated people have a stranglehold on this country.
BFM,
You found me out! I’m the ghost-writer for all of Andy’s material. He’s a hologram.
Bron,
“The left has had a virtual strangle hold on the disemination of knowledge in this country for almost 100 years.”
And the right has had a virtual hold on dissemination of disinformation for a couple of decades.
😉
bob:
“Except, no.
We don’t follow public policy as written by four-year-old children.”
Seems like it to me, all of the fucked up, stupid regulations I have seen.
No leftist and progressives are regarded as leftists and progressives by most anyone not leftist or progressive.
You delude yourself but that is the way most leftist/progressives see it. I was first aware of it when a relative said that to me. She has some fluff degree like polisci, history, psychology, sociology, education, geography, you know, the courses you take when you arent smart enough for anything else. Well, I do allow for a few people who have an abiding interest in a particular field but on the whole, most of em aint too bright.
And the sad thing is that most of those people go to law school and then make our laws and regulations. So basically, the people with the lowest IQ’s of the educated class are the ones running the show. So in essence we do follow public policy as written by 4 year olds.
I know plenty of right wingers who took those classes as well so dont think I am bashing a particular group.
” … some fluff degree like polisci, history, psychology, sociology, education, geography, you know, the courses you take when you arent smart enough for anything else … most of those people go to law school and then make our laws and regulations … I know plenty of right wingers who took those classes as well so dont think I am bashing a particular group.” -Bron
So all you people out there with fluff degrees in polisci, history, psychology, sociology, education, geography, and law …Bron’s got your number.
Blouise,
as someone with a political science degree, I take exception to Bron’s statement. It was very useful for me in law school.
I got my degree in education! I received an excellent foundation in the liberal arts, sciences, geography at my state college. I was well-prepared to teach all subjects in elementary school.
blouise:
I doubt I have all their numbers, I am making a generalization of course.
People on this blog regularly make fun of people who dont go to university, I thought a little the other way might be fun.
I worked with those people when I was a roughneck and roustabout, they are good people and most are smart. They can do just about anything you want with a machine.
So I think it only fair to spread the denigration around. Isnt that social justice? I mean really, who the fuck do people think they are? The air must really be fresh and clean at such a high altitude looking down on us unwashed masses and making pronouncements about how we should live and the level of our intelligence.
May Providence save us from pompous dumbshits who are too stupid to know their limitations.
Elaine:
I wasnt talking about people like you. I apologize to you and others who are decent people, I just had had enough of people calling other people stupid.
As I mentioned to Blouise above, I thought it might be fun to do some name calling myself.
BigFatMike said: “But I don’t think I can agree with the idea that adults should accept vaccination without question.”
The issue of vaccination is a complicated one and reasoned debated is often collateral damage caused by the dumbing down of the conversation by the anti-vaxxers. There is a certain (small) proportion of the population that has a bad reaction to vaccines. These people need to be identified early and exempted from vaccination, but they are also the people who the anti-vaxxers put at risk as the only protection they have is herd immunity. While the odds might be different, refusing to get vaccinated is the moral equivalent of two fisted Russian roulette with one gun pointed at your own head and another pointed at a stranger’s head.
Bron,
I will never accept that other people’s ignorance, prejudice and stupidity is superior (or even equal) to my own knowledge, intelligence and objectivity. If you don’t understand science then your opinions on scientific topics should be discounted out of hand. You wouldn’t want a flat-earther consulting on a design for a surface to orbit vehicle, would you?
Bron,
Who makes fun of people who don’t go to university? I know some extremely intelligent people who never attended college…or only attended for a year or two because they didn’t have the money. What I hate most about what has happened because of school reform is the mania for high stakes testing. Schools should be about finding children’s specific talents and trying to meet their needs. I don’t think college is the best path for some students. I’d add that some kids would be better off postponing their education until they have some valuable life experiences.
Bron,
Let me add that some of the dumbest people in Congress are highly educated individuals.
As a kid I remember being terrified by polio. Dr. Salk’s vaccine changed all that. Having had both forms of measles, chicken pox and suffering shingles as an adult, I wish vaccines had been available. While I don’t believe in blindly trusting common wisdom, nor the government, the anti-vaxers are in my opinion idiots, almost lowering themselves to the level of Christian Scientists, or Scientology. As for the politicians who pander to this nonsense, they are merely hypocritical con men.
Mike,
At least in my book, the levels of Christian Scientists (who are merely willfully ignorant) and the for-profit cult started by a certain science-fiction writer are worlds apart. As far as I know, the Christian Scientists don’t try to brainwash people and scam them out of their money.
Slarti:
So people dont have a say in how they raise their children? Is that what you are saying? You are going to force them to vaccinate their children? Do you have children? Maybe someone who doesnt have children shouldnt be allowed to comment on raising children?
I dont know any flat earthers.
Bron,
Ah, come on. I was just helping you have a little fun at the expense of minds like Shakespeare, Aristotle, Socrates … you know, the “fluff” dudes. Show a little gratitude!
Hell has frozen over.
Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal (R) is unequivocal in his support of his state’s mandatory vaccination laws. Never thought I would agree with Governor Jindal on very many things, but it appears we are on the same page here. Good for the governor–credit where credit is due.
The link below goes to the story on TV Channel 6 in Baton Rouge.
http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/story/28014632/gov-bobby-jindal-i-have-no-reservations-about-vaccines
People on this blog regularly make fun of people who dont go to university, I thought a little the other way might be fun. – Bron
B S. My husband of 49 years is a tool and die maker. My granddaughter is a tool and die maker’s apprentice. If anyone on this blog ever made fun of people who didn’t go to university, I would be all over them like stink on feces. Just like I’m all over you.
It doesn’t happen here so your explanation is a lie. You wanted to take a shot and now you’re trying to blame the target.
The target was too big, er, too small, ummmm, too fast. Made of Naugahyde?
Gene,
Nonexistent
“Seth Mnookin, a professor at MIT who has written a book on the vaccination debate called “The Panic Virus,” called the comments from Christie and Paul “incredibly, incredibly irresponsible.”
Such remarks, he said, “basically fail at the first duty of a politician, which is to calm his constituents in moments of irrational crisis.”
The criticism came too from some political strategists, who wondered whether Christie in particular might have been attempting to appeal to Republicans suspicious of government mandates.
“There’s only one of two options,” said Rick Wilson, a Republican operative from Florida. “Either he’s so tone-deaf that he doesn’t understand why saying this is bad for him, or this is a considered political strategy. And that would be even more troubling.” – Washington Post
@blouise: “basically fail at the first duty of a politician, which is to calm his constituents in moments of irrational crisis.”
I guess I am way past expecting responsible behavior from some quarters of the political spectrum. Too many politicians seem to be trying to hook into popular fears and ride that energy to office.
Blouise,
Nonexistent? Don’t tell my cousin that. He’s got part ownership in a Nauga ranch.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/pat-robertson-opposes-vaccination-mandates-questions-water-fluoridation All the usual suspects chime in……
Glenn Beck: Anti-vaxxers are being persecuted like heretics in ‘days of Galileo’
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/glenn-beck-anti-vaxxers-are-being-persecuted-like-heretics-in-days-of-galileo/
Excerpt:
Erstwhile Fox News commentator and “chiropractic neurology” devotée Glenn Beck on Tuesday saluted parents who refuse to vaccinate their children and compared them to the Renaissance astronomer Galileo, who was tried as a heretic by the Catholic church for suggesting that the world is round and orbits around the sun.
Right Wing Watch reported that Beck took time during his daily Internet TV broadcast to reiterate his support of non-vaccinating parents and salute their stance in favor of “freedom” and to promote the thoroughly-debunked notion that there is a connection between vaccines and autism in children.
As a student of and big fan of Galileo, I’m prompted to say “Really, Glenn? Really?” with a mandatory scornful look and possibly an obscene gesture.
If you need a prime example of willful ignorance, Bron, there is always Glenn Beck: the man who never met a book he couldn’t misunderstand.
Thanks, everyone! This thread is hilarious.
bron,
“No leftist and progressives are regarded as leftists and progressives by most anyone not leftist or progressive.”
Would you please diagram that sentence for me? There are so many negatives that I can’t discern the meaning. Most of the words in it consist of “leftist and progressive.” Is it meant to be a verbal mobius strip? I keep re-reading it, and I always end up at the same place: “What?”
I’m sure that, in the spirit of everything else you’ve said today, it’s hilarious.
You’ve insulted nearly everyone (but not me) who reads this blog.
“…some fluff degree like polisci, history, psychology, sociology, education, geography, you know, the courses you take when you arent smart enough for anything else…And the sad thing is that most of those people go to law school and then make our laws and regulations. So basically, the people with the lowest IQ’s of the educated class are the ones running the show.”
Keep it up.
I can’t stop laughing.
Gene,
Zippy and the Nauga converse.
Slarti,
But my ignorance, prejudice and stupidity is superior to your ignorance, prejudice and stupidity. I excel in all three.
Some prefer to power point at all three.
Selfish anti vaxxers’ children should make sure they only have play dates and go to school with others of like mind. We’ll see just how long they will remain true to their convictions when their children start coming down with measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, polio, smallpox, etc. en masse. It’s because of us who have had our children and grandchildren vaccinated that we haven’t seen a case of smallpox in years. But it’s coming. Measles being so highly contagious, is just the one of the first of these old dreaded diseases to reemerge. It should infuriate any responsible parent who went through the post vaccination fevers with their kids. I had my son vaccinated and he actually came down with a full blown case of the measles, which is rare. He got a secondary infection and spent time in the hospital at 18 months old. Despite this I still recommend the childhood vaccinations. My other three children had the MMR and were fine. Seeing how seriously ill my son was with the measles and the secondary infection I wouldn’t wish this on any poor kid.
Inga,
Good idea.
I was thinking of the old-style remedy.
Quarantine.
Nobody goes in, nobody goes out.
or
Don’t admit non-vaccinated kids to school.
Then notify their parents that school attendance is mandatory-“your move.”
Gene,
That was awful. I did not deserve that, despite being a leftist progressive fascist.
I really think Roald Dahl hit the heart of question and it is in essence the same people who get flustered about terrorism when your chance of dying in a terrorist attack is about 1:20,000,000.
“So what about the risks that your children will run from being immunised?
They are almost non-existent. Listen to this. In a district of around 300,000 people, there will be only one child every 250 years who will develop serious side effects from measles immunisation! That is about a million to one chance.
I should think there would be more chance of your child choking to death on a chocolate bar than of becoming seriously ill from a measles immunisation.”
Ignorance of statistical information, be it willful or accidental, deforms critical perspective and poorly informs choice. Anti-vaxxers are allowed to make choices, including how to raise their children, but when those choices are poorly informed and put the lives of others at risk in a measurable concrete manner, then that choice should be eliminated. “Should I take the Tahoe to town today or the Abrams? Maybe I’ll fly in on the Apache. I’m a little cranky because I’m trying to quit smoking.” Some choices cannot be allowed for the common good. I know, B., the common good is something you have a hard time wrapping your mind around, but it is a real thing and it underpins the very notion of public health. The Romans didn’t build aqueducts and sewers just to prove what bad-ass engineers they were. They did it to keep people from dying.
Blouise,
Nonexistent? Don’t tell my cousin that. He’s got part ownership in a Nauga ranch. – Gene
It’s gotta be a cousin by marriage.
It’s on threads like this that I really miss Henman
Wow, Gene, I knew it was rare, but didn’t realize it was THAT rare. My son had the MMR and two weeks later had a full blown case of the measles. The Pediatrician said that it indeed was from the inoculation. Who knows maybe my son had a lowered immune system at the time of the immunization. I guess I can tell him, he’s one in a million now, lol!
Speaking of willful ignorance . . .
“Immigration hardliner Rep. Mo Brooks (R-Ala.) said Tuesday that ‘illegal aliens’ may be to blame for the recent measles outbreak that began in California and has continued to spread to other states.” Huff Po
He was much funnier with Larry and Curly.
Gene,
Power point? Really?
*sigh*
Bron,
Would you support the right of someone who was unable to be vaccinated to move to Florida, buy a house in a neighborhood of anti-vaxxers, legally obtain a firearm and sit* on their front porch with it picking off any children who happen by based on the quite reasonable fear for the danger the children pose?
* or “stand their ground”.
As for childless people, don’t their rights count? An unvaccinated child is essentially a biological weapons factory (in the hands of someone who has already demonstrated irrational behavior, no less). Shouldn’t they be taken out with drone strikes as soon as possible to protect the rest of us from these weapons of mass destruction? Don’t worry, though, I’m sure it can be done with little collateral damage beyond the parents.
Bob,
I’ve never been one to put my stupidity ahead of anyone else’s, so that’s fine.
Blouise,
Hi!
BigFatMike,
I don’t understand why more politicians don’t try winning gigs by calling out the fear-mongers. After all, it couldn’t do worse than the “run away from all of your accomplishments and values” strategy that the Democrats tried last cycle and, even if they lost, it would set them (or the next challenger) up better in the next election when they could point out how none of the fear-mongering came true.
Inga,
I don’t think it’s possible for the Pediatrician to know that your son’s measles were the result of the inoculation.
I think the Pediatrician can make a guess.
But I’m just guessing. I could be wrong.
Slarti,
Since we were discussing bad decisions, bad puns seemed appropriate.
Slarti:
I would recommend a surgical strike using CH2O3N3, works every time.
blouise:
That is my perception.
Bob, yes you are correct, it was his guess as the timing was right. But who knows, he could’ve been exposed around the same time as his mmunization. We’ll never know for sure.
Slarti,
Back atcha
Bron,
“He lay there like a slug. It was his only defense.”
Here’s What A Depression-Era Cartoonist Had To Say About The Anti-Vaccination Movement
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/03/anti-vaccination-cartoon-1900_n_6608366.html
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/02/hillary-clinton-grandma-in-chief-114886.html “Hillary Clinton is embracing her inner grandma.
After Republican 2016 hopefuls spent a day struggling to finesse the vaccination debate, the 67-year-old Clinton weighed in roughly an hour before midnight: “The science is clear,” she tweeted late Monday. “The earth is round, the sky is blue, and #vaccineswork. Let’s protect all our kids. #GrandmothersKnowBest.”
It was just 127 characters, but it struck a chord — especially her new hashtag. By Tuesday evening the tweet had garnered roughly 24,000 retweets — reaching millions of Twitter followers and making it her most-shared tweet since she jabbed Fox during February 2014’s Super Bowl.
The Monday night tweet was just her sixth in 2015, but some of her backers felt it might shed new light on her candidacy.
The message offered a look at how Clinton might approach her likely 2016 campaign for the White House — and how she might combat Republican attacks on her age.” Sounds like a sensible grandma amidst the nuts. Could be her key to victory……
good for Hillary, but my question is why we would want to elect a president who is an enabler to a possible sexual predator and at the very least he has an addiction? As Michelle Obama said “she cant take care of her own house, how is she going to take care of the White house?” I bet Barrack doesnt stray, he would be afraid.
Maybe Michelle should run? She seems to have the guts in that family.
bron, Are you saying that a marriage to a possible addict or alcoholic disqualifies one from running for office?
My apologies if this has been posted already.
“Another intrusion into our freedoms! Why should I have to wash my hands?”
-area four-year-old
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/thom-tillis-washing-hands-toilet
Swarthmoremom:
I dont know if I am or not. Certainly a person has a right to run for office but then I have a right to judge their ability to perform. I believe Hillary has been handed everything she has ever done as a public figure due to her marriage to Bill Clinton. If she had not married him, she would be just another policy wonkette on capitol hill. My opinion.
She has put up with his philandering for the sake of power, I would have respect for her had she left him a long time ago. I dont think someone who seeks power so much that they would suffer that sort of humiliation is fit for public office.
I have very little respect for alcoholics, drug addicts, sex addicts, pedophiles, child abusers or fat people. Or those who enable them. They have no respect for themselves and are detrimental to their own health and the well being of those who rely on them. Put the bottle down, take the needle out of your arm and eat a god damn carrot rather than a twinkie or moon pie.
I have a great deal of respect for people who overcome their addictions and do not enable others whom they love to indulge.
“I said: ‘I don’t have any problem with Starbucks if they choose to opt out of this policy as long as they post a sign that says “We don’t require our employees to wash their hands after leaving the restroom,” Tillis said.
“The market will take care of that,” he added, to laughter from the audience.
It sure will.
I wonder how many restaurant employees wash their hands because a government regulation requires it? To expect that is pretty stupid as well.
SwM,
Aside from the insulting silliness Bron brings to the party, “a sensible grandma amidst the nuts” does have a certain armor that would be hard to penetrate, even l’amour de grand-mère works.
blouise:
what would you say to your daughter if her husband slept around on her on a regular basis?
From your commenting here, I doubt it would be “oh just ignore it dear.”
What would you think of your daughter if she put up with it for decades? Do you think she would be mentally healthy? What would that do to your grandchildren?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/05/us/politics/rand-paul-linked-to-association-of-american-physicians-and-surgeons.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0 “It just annoys me that I’m being characterized as someone who’s against vaccines,” he said as he was rolling up his T-shirt sleeve before the shot. “That’s not what I said. I said I’ve heard of people who’ve had vaccines and they see a temporal association and they believe that.”
His attempt to push back against the perception that he puts his libertarian politics ahead of his better medical judgment reflected the difficult balance the senator is trying to strike: To appeal to the kind of voters he needs for a likely White House bid next year — those who do not typically vote Republican — he cannot afford to promote views that seem out of the mainstream.
But Mr. Paul and the physicians’ association share a libertarian philosophy and deep skepticism about government involvement in medical care that often plays out in public health debates.
“This is about channeling ideals of freedom, personal choice and liberty even if you put the community in peril in the process,” said Dr. Arthur L. Caplan, an expert in medical ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center.”
Bron,
My daughter, my grandchildren …the last time you mentioned my grandchildren it was tied up in a suggestion that I take them to northern Iraq.
I know you’re trying to be clever, dear, and I encourage you to keep striving for when push comes to shove, you’ll eventually figure out how to pull the door open.
“It just annoys me that I’m being characterized as someone who’s against vaccines,” he said ….
One down
blouise:
That was a good one, may I use it?
On the Iraq thing, I was addressing Elaine.
bron,
“I wonder how many restaurant employees wash their hands because a government regulation requires it? To expect that is pretty stupid as well.”
Speaking of stupid, willfully stupid, why do I need to explain this to you?
I’ll put it in separated sentences, so that you can comprehend it.
A government regulation would compel the restaurant to maintain certain minimum standards of public health, or be shut down.
Which the government damned well should.
The restaurant would then require the employees to wash their hands after using the restroom. Which the restaurant damned well should.
The employees wouldn’t be responding to a government regulation.
The employees would be responding to their employer, who will fire them if they don’t wash their hands before handling food.
Which the restaurant damned well should.
Now, with that explanation, do you understand the issue, Bron?
One more concept for you to grasp:
If the restaurant, being as stupid as Tillis, put a sign in the restroom saying that employees are not required to wash their hands before returning to work (following me so far?),
then only the people who used that particular restroom, and who bothered to read the sign, would be notified.
It would be far more effective for the public to read a ‘Closed for violations of public health codes’ sign on the front door.
If this is still unclear, I suggest that you move to Northern Iraq. I’m sure that food industry employees aren’t required to wash their hands, there. Libertarian paradise!
On the Iraq thing, I was addressing Elaine. – Bron
Convenient memory lapse on your part … again. You appear to have difficulty in accepting responsibility for your words, a proclivity shared with Rand Paul. I used to do a lot of hunting and one of the dangers in setting traps is forgetting where they were placed. The use of emotion meant to trap an opponent in an argument requires finesse and skill. You need to practice.
The push-shove-pull joke is really old and I don’t own the copyright.
Bron, (re Bob K’s comment)
There … see? That’s how it’s done. Your libertarianism is being attacked without one reference to your family. Simple.
Bron said: “what would you say to your daughter if her husband slept around on her on a regular basis?”
Personally, I think that issues of sex within a marriage are entirely the purview of the couple and none of my business. If Hillary knows Bill is a horn dog and that’s okay with both of them, then I don’t really care. As for it effecting her worthiness for office, I think that the systemic hypocrisy in the Republican party (which preaches “family values” and then turns a blind eye to whoremongers like Senator Vitter and adulterers lying to their constituents about hiking the Appalachian trail) is a much more worrisome trait in a potential leader. Seriously, I’m far more concerned about the type of person who would even consider putting Sarah Palin a heartbeat from the presidency than I will ever be about someone who accepts her husband getting extracurricular blowjobs in order to preserve her own shot at the presidency.
And if it were my kid, I’d be far more concerned about issues of honesty and their happiness than I would be about judging them based on outdated societal mores.
@Slartibartfast: “Personally, I think that issues of sex within a marriage are entirely the purview of the couple and none of my business.”
I think I have to agree. If they want to have an open relationship I don’t see that it is anyone else’s business. If she wants to forgive him for the gizillionth time, that is between Hillary, Bill and maybe Chelsea.
I just don’t see how it illuminates her position of foreign or domestic policy.
BTW, I don’t think by any stretch is Bill some kind of addict – except maybe for power.
And finally, in some conversations it might be interesting to discuss how Hillary managed to get to the inner circle of power. But in this context it seems to me the relevant conversation is what she did once she was there. I by no means approve all her positions. But she is well withing the main stream of US political action and she has demonstrated she is a very strong performer.
I am sure there are some who will be swayed by criticisms of her personal life. But I think there are more important things to discuss.
“what would you say to your daughter if her husband slept around on her on a regular basis?”
Bron,
As the father of two adult daughters, I wouldn’t say anything unless they asked me for my advice. This is not because I don;t care, but it is because my daughter’s sex lives is none of my business. As a parent it is ones job to supply ones children with good information and with your own personal perspective. Beyond that, knowing ones children are informed and equipped to deal with sex, a parent should not pry into their child’s interpersonal relationships. I’ve always found fathers interested in their daughter’s sex lives to be creepy and more protective of their own beliefs, than interested in their child’s happiness.
Mike:
I agree with you on that topic, it is none of my business. But how would you react if she came to you for advice? What advice would you give her?
Hillary Clinton’s enabling of Bill’s sexual predation is a hell of a lot creeper than asking a rhetorical question on a blog. I’ve always found people who enable sexual predators to be seriously flawed human beings. I imagine the ones who would enable the enabler are likewise flawed.
Slarti:
I aint a republican, so I dont really care. I thought Vitter was pretty stupid and also Larry Craig.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/us/carl-djerassi-dies-at-91-forever-altered-reproductive-practices-as-a-creator-of-the-pill.html?_r=1
Carl Djerassi, an eminent chemist who 63 years ago synthesized a hormone that changed the world by creating the key ingredient for the oral contraceptive known as “the pill,” died on Friday at his home in San Francisco. He was 91.
Too many links earlier???
Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2005 Oct;26(5):439-46.
Mercury and autism: accelerating evidence?
Mutter J1, Naumann J, Schneider R, Walach H, Haley B.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16264412
“In vitro, mercury and thimerosal in levels found several days after vaccination inhibit methionine synthetase (MS) by 50%. Normal function of MS is crucial in biochemical steps necessary for brain development, attention and production of glutathione, an important antioxidative and detoxifying agent. Repetitive doses of thimerosal leads to neurobehavioral deteriorations in autoimmune susceptible mice, increased oxidative stress and decreased intracellular levels of glutathione in vitro. Subsequently, autistic children have significantly decreased level of reduced glutathione. Promising treatments of autism involve detoxification of mercury, and supplementation of deficient metabolites.”
Immunol Res. 2014 Dec;60(2-3):366-75. doi: 10.1007/s12026-014-8586-0.
Autoimmune/inflammatory syndrome induced by adjuvants (ASIA): clues and pitfalls in the pediatric background.
Esposito S1, Prada E, Mastrolia MV, Tarantino G, Codecà C, Rigante D.
Pharmacol Res. 2014 Sep 30. pii: S1043-6618(14)00139-X. doi: 10.1016/j.phrs.2014.08.002. [Epub ahead of print]
Predicting post-vaccination autoimmunity: Who might be at risk?
Soriano A1, Nesher G2, Shoenfeld Y3.
J Inorg Biochem. 2011 Nov;105(11):1489-99. doi: 10.1016/j.jinorgbio.2011.08.008. Epub 2011 Aug 23.
Do aluminum vaccine adjuvants contribute to the rising prevalence of autism?
Tomljenovic L1, Shaw CA.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22099159
Abstract:
“When assessing adjuvant toxicity in children, two key points ought to be considered: (i) children should not be viewed as “small adults” as their unique physiology makes them much more vulnerable to toxic insults; and (ii) if exposure to Al from only few vaccines can lead to cognitive impairment and autoimmunity in adults, is it unreasonable to question whether the current pediatric schedules, often containing 18 Al adjuvanted vaccines, are safe for children? By applying Hill’s criteria for establishing causality between exposure and outcome we investigated whether exposure to Al from vaccines could be contributing to the rise in ASD prevalence in the Western world. Our results show that: (i) children from countries with the highest ASD prevalence appear to have the highest exposure to Al from vaccines; (ii) the increase in exposure to Al adjuvants significantly correlates with the increase in ASD prevalence in the United States observed over the last two decades (Pearson r=0.92, p<0.0001); and (iii) a significant correlation exists between the amounts of Al administered to preschool children and the current prevalence of ASD in seven Western countries, particularly at 3-4 months of age (Pearson r=0.89-0.94, p=0.0018-0.0248). The application of the Hill's criteria to these data indicates that the correlation between Al in vaccines and ASD may be causal. Because children represent a fraction of the population most at risk for complications following exposure to Al, a more rigorous evaluation of Al adjuvant safety seems warranted."
As someone with an autoimmune condition and a child with one, seems prudent to be cautious. Rather than echoing all the pro-vaccination information, consider looking into anti-vaccine (or at least modified-schedule advocates) and see what they have to say. I do still vaccinate, but on a highly modified schedule.
“As someone with an autoimmune condition”
There’s your problem right there. You are making the fallacy of composition (when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole). The general population does not have autoimmune conditions on the whole or at a statistically significant level for your assertion “[r]ather than echoing all the pro-vaccination information, consider looking into anti-vaccine” to be anything other than an example of facile logic and/or special pleading. Because of your health condition, different rules might apply to you than the population as a whole. Even pro-vaccination people would not want you to take a vaccine that could put you at risk from a known autoimmune issue.
And to answer your question, yes, too many links. The spam filter is set with a two link maximum.
What is the logical way of suggesting others research and understand opposing data/arguments before making a judgment? Some of the judgments above seem rather hasty or uninformed.
Does this count as statistically significant? Not all are necessarily induced by adjuvants, but could vaccines be considered part of the development and increase of autoimmunity?
“In the U.S., between 14.7 and 23.5 million individuals are affected by autoimmune diseases.”
http://report.nih.gov/biennialreport/chapter3/20_NIH_Autoimmune_Diseases.html
~13% of the population is affected by autoimmune conditions (about the same percentage as left-handed people)
“According to a new study the prevalence and incidence of autoimmune diseases, such as lupus, celiac disease, and type 1 diabetes, is on the rise and researchers at the Center for Disease Control and Prevention are unsure why.”
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/246960.php
Gene,
“And to answer your question, yes, too many links. The spam filter is set with a two link maximum.”
Whoops! 🙂 Just trying to be thorough with my citations.
“In the U.S., between 14.7 and 23.5 million individuals are affected by autoimmune diseases.” Prairie Rose Yes, and measles could possibly be deadly for many of them. Children with leukemia are particularly vulnerable. I know they encourage diabetics to fully vaccinate for protection.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/02/04/alex-jones-defends-listener-rand-paul-on-vaccin/202411 “Alex Jones defended ally and “listener” Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) from media attacks over his controversial vaccination remarks by lashing out at a CNBC anchor who challenged Paul. Jones, who helped Paul get elected to the Senate in 2010, called CNBC’s Kelly Evans a “whore” and “pimp” for “signing on to a system of murder, you little piece of trash, tramp, filth, scum woman!”
Paul has been heavily criticized after he said this week that vaccines should be voluntary because there are purportedly “many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines.” Paul has faced further criticism for attempting to shush CNBC’s Evans during their contentious conversation about vaccines.”
PR,
The population of the U.S. is a little over 320m as of the 2013 census so even at 23m that is not ~13%, it is less than 10% (~7%). That’s a less than one in ten chance and that is assuming that the immune disorder isn’t known and accounted for. But let’s assume it is 13%. That’s only slightly better than a one in ten chance and that is assuming that the immune disorder isn’t known and accounted for. Both statements also don’t consider that as a biological proposition not all vaccines are going to present a risk to a given immune disorder equally nor are those risks going to be of proportional severity, thus reducing the chance of interaction in the general populace further. If you want to see numbers for specific vaccines, the CDC is a good place to start.
Prairie Rose,
Thanks for the links.
I’ve only looked at the 2005 paper. A few issues:
“In vitro, mercury and thimerosal in levels found several days after vaccination inhibit methionine synthetase (MS) by 50%. ”
OK, in a test tube mercury and thimerosol…inhibit methionine sythetase by 50%. In vitro, THC from marijuana kills cancer cells. Problem is, in vivo, it doesn’t.
The better experimental sequence would be to first, find out that mercury and thimerosol cause autism. Then, the in vitro research could be used to find a mechanism for the observed result, in this case autism. But mercury and thimerosol haven’t been found to cause autism, in vivo, in humans. There’s plenty of clinical data.
Some great researchers, in the late 70s, who shall remain unnamed, performed in vitro tests on isolated cells from various rat organs. The purpose of the in vitro tests was to find a mechanism for the ototoxicity (basically deafness) observed in humans taking aminoglycoside antibiotics. First, a human effect was verified, clinically. Then, the in vitro tests were done, to see if a mechanism could be found. That’s the proper order.
This paper was written in 2005. Many millions of children have been vaccinated, since then. What was the result? What percentage became autistic? Were those that were found to be autistic after vaccination, not autistic before vaccination?
What are the causes of autism? As far as I know, the causes aren’t known. Do you have a hypothesis?
Yes, in most things, it’s wise to be cautious. For most of the population, withholding vaccine is the opposite of caution.
I just spent twenty minutes listening to this lecture by medical epidemiologist Dr. Seth Berkley. This is currently on Netflix. Excellent lecture, with relatively easily understood graphics. He explains how viruses work to try and kill you. He explains the latest theories about the search for a vaccine for the flu and HIV viruses, and why a vaccine that works for these two diseases is elusive.
Actually, the more I think about it, the whole vaccination question is an exercise in ethical calculus that really quite illustrative of the process of dealing with problems based in a situation where the needs of many outweigh the needs or desires of the individual. The pursuit of the greater good often brings such problems to bear. Sometimes the equation favors the many, sometimes it favors the one, but considering the possible outcomes here include pandemic and the limitations on the individual apply to a narrow subset, the calculations easily favor the many as is the case many times in questions of public health.
Prairie Rose,
It is for folks in your situation, that your family needs everyone possible to get the vaccine. When you and your family are surrounded by people who have immunity from disease, you get the benefit of herd immunity. Failure to vaccinate everyone possible is an invitation for diseases to mutate by incubating in unvaccinated people, thus creating resistant and more deadly variants of the disease.
Bob K.,
I would take your opinion one step further. I think willful failure to get kids vaccinated should be considered child abuse by medical neglect. Religious objections should not count. We certainly don’t give “strongly held beliefs” any slack when it comes to sexual and physical abuse.
Medical neglect of a dependent child is abuse. As a survivor of German measles, polio and tetanus, this is a subject on which I do not compromise. No hippie-dippie pseudoscience will stop a kid from getting infected if these diseases come back. The more people fail to get vaccinated, the more risk of a pandemic.
Chuck,
“your family needs everyone possible to get the vaccine”
This is part of my concern. I do not want “everyone” around me to get vaccinated in a one size fits all approach as it is done now. Kids’ individual physiology is not considered when vaccinating. How many kids now have autoimmune conditions because of this?
What can be done to assist some people’s bodies in flushing the adjuvants out of the body so they do not cause harm? There isn’t any research, to my knowledge, regarding this.
A modified vaccine schedule for certain populations? That is what we do to try to balance between the potential harm of possible induced autoimmunity and the potential harm of disease complications. Unfortunately, this is often vilified by the medical community instead of considered. Consequently, there are probably many people that choose to not fight the system and don’t vaccinate at all instead of changing the number of vaccines at one time.
Prairie Rose, I think that changing up the schedule and/ or reducing the combination vaccines is worth considering. However, it imperative that all kids eventually get the vaccines completed, preferably before pre school. If they’re in daycare, they need to be on schedule. We’re worried about my 9 month old grandson now and the measles epidemic. The MMR isn’t given until a year old. My grandson is in daycare, an excellent one, but babies and toddlers are notorious little germ/ virus vectors.
Bob K.,
“Many millions of children have been vaccinated, since then. What was the result? What percentage became autistic? Were those that were found to be autistic after vaccination, not autistic before vaccination?
What are the causes of autism? As far as I know, the causes aren’t known. Do you have a hypothesis?”
Forbes Magazine cites 1 in 150 kids are diagnosed on the spectrum. I think it was 1 in 250 in 2005 (that was awhile ago, so I may be mis-remembering). The VAER database may have data regarding autism diagnoses and vaccination.
In addition to a paper cited above about re-examining the schedule, here is a paper regarding some of the hypothesized causes:
Click to access entropy-14-02227.pdf
“We propose that children with the autism diagnosis are especially vulnerable to toxic metals such as aluminum and mercury due to insufficient serum sulfate and glutathione.” (There’s more, obviously.)
My hypothesis is that both genetic and environmental factors lead to autism–for environmental factors, namely key micronutrient/fatty acid deficiencies combined with exposure to toxins and, as indicated above, an impaired inability to excrete the toxins, leading to brain dysfunction. So, no, it is not purely the vaccines. Could they be a trigger? Perhaps. Could ingesting too many pesticides and herbicides also be factors? Probably.
Inga,
“I think that changing up the schedule and/ or reducing the combination vaccines is worth considering.”
I believe there are calls to do so (at least one cited above), and a new vaccine schedule just came out a few days ago, but really, it doesn’t look much different from the old schedule. To my knowledge, there has not been much discussion about modifying the schedule to prevent adverse reactions like autoimmunity or providing additional treatment for at-risk populations.
And, yes, any place lots of little people gather is a real petri dish!
PR,
What adjuvants need to be flushed out of the body so that they don’t cause harm?
What adjuvants have been shown to cause harm?
If they’d been shown to cause harm, the adjuvants wouldn’t be in the medicine.
Your liver and kidneys usually detoxify, and flush out, respectively, any compounds which could cause a problem. There’s no need to take any external measures to detoxify.
You already have everything you need.
“How many kids now have autoimmune conditions because of this?”
I don’t know. Why do you think that any do? Because the anti-vaxxers said so?
The vast majority of anti-vax experts have never cracked a book on immunology, microbiology, microbial pathology, microtoxins, virology, cell biology, pharmacology, or biochemistry. They understand nothing at all about the workings of the body.
Anti-vax is a religion. The adherents make it all up. They decide that something is dangerous, with no proof, and set about frantically explaining why it’s so.
Prarie Rose,
There has been extensive research on how the excess materials that contain the vaccine is flushed out of the body. It goes out the same as everything else you put in your body. Urine, stool and sweat. There has been a lot of hue and cry about mercury. You get more atoms of mercury in a salmon croquette or tuna sandwich than any vaccine. You get more preservatives in a can of green beans or corn than a shot contains.
As I said in my comment above, I survived German measles at the age of eight. I survived polio and tetanus when I was five…both in the same year. Maybe “survived” is the wrong word. I have post-polio syndrome. It is still with me after all these years. I damn near died of tetanus. I am now violently allergic to tetanus serum. It can, and has, caused anaphylactic shock and cardiac arrest when I was 18.
Those are diseases I would not wish on my worst enemy. Shingles maybe, but not that terrible triad.
And oh yes. I had whooping cough. That was when I was four, and is the main thing I remember about being four years old.
I just got my flu shot. It may not prevent the flu, but certainly will lessen the effects if I do get it. Also got my pneumonia booster a few weeks ago. They used to call pneumonia, “The old person’s friend,” because it would take you quickly. I am not interested in going quickly. I have had pneumonia five times when I was younger. I don’t need it at the age I am now.
PR,
Just saw your comment above, sorry.
Entropy is not considered a reputable journal. Even then, it’s a physics journal, not concerned with biology.
They are famous for publishing an article which blamed glyphosate for each and every human malady.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar-haspel/condemning-monsanto-with-_b_3162694.html
Entropy charges $1517.12 for every article they publish. If you pay them, they will publish.
And here’s the actual cause of autism (organic food sales):
There is a shingles vaccine now. My doc recommend it for me as well as the pneumovac. For us oldies, it’ll save a world of hurt, especially in the case of shingles, ouch, ouch.
The wordpress spam filter took my comment again. Only two (count ’em) URLs.
Actually from what I’ve read the consensus is that the uptick in autoimmune disorders seems to be rooted in environmental factors based on how it seems to cluster in the epidemiology, but there hasn’t been in depth study of the matter.
It could be the industrial disease.
Bob K.,
I don’t think the filter liked your second link. It is a moody beast.
Prarie Rose,
There is something called the statistical mean (x̄), which is bracketed by standard deviations. In math, that is represented by the lower case Sigma (σ). Almost 100% of the population can be found in the three σ ± x̄. Stay within those parameters and it is pretty safe to give a standard schedule vaccination. For the 0.3% outside that range, tailoring the schedule to the needs of a child with problems is not a Herculean task.
Gene,
Thanks!
But the second link was the funniest one!
The first one was only mildly amusing.
The spam filter thinks I’m a smartass. I am without honor in my own country!
Everywhere else, too.
Inga,
I am not above wishing some of the more egregious anti-vax CT theorist docs might get a raging case of shingles. 😈
And with that chart, Bob wins the Internets tonight.
Many autoimmune disorders are familial. Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis being one of the most common. I’m my family my mother, my sister, myself, two of my daughters, two of my nieces all have the antibodies and are hypothyroid, on Synthroid. Myself and my sister have positive RA factor. My nephew has Lupus. There is in my opinion an extremely strong familial element in autoimmune disorders. I suspect that after women have babies, sometimes a fetal cell escapes into the woman’s body, ending up in the thyroid and setting up inflammation and the eventual destruction of the thyroid, just a theory. Some of these fetal cells are even found in the brain years and years later.
Chuck, that is truly evil of you. 😝
Bob K.,
“What adjuvants need to be flushed out of the body so that they don’t cause harm?”
Aluminum, for one.
“What adjuvants have been shown to cause harm?”
Aluminum, for one.
“If they’d been shown to cause harm, the adjuvants wouldn’t be in the medicine.”
Adjuvants are necessary for most vaccines in order to “prime” the immune system to respond more effectively to the vaccine.
“Your liver and kidneys usually detoxify, and flush out, respectively, any compounds which could cause a problem. There’s no need to take any external measures to detoxify.
You already have everything you need.”
Unless your body does not have enough of the micronutrients used in detoxification or your body is missing or has a defective gene necessary to conduct detoxification.
“How many kids now have autoimmune conditions because of this?”
I don’t know. Why do you think that any do? Because the anti-vaxxers said so?”
Have I cited ANY anti-vaxxer websites? Tracking of adverse events following vaccination is conducted passively by VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System), so the rates are estimates only. Also, many autoimmune conditions can be active in the body long before they are troublesome enough to prompt a trip to the doctor. I probably had autoantibodies for 10 years before finally getting diagnosed. I don’t know either, but does this not warrant additional research (as is noted in the sources I provided)?
Chuck,
“For the 0.3% outside that range, tailoring the schedule to the needs of a child with problems is not a Herculean task.”
Yep. That’s what we’re trying to do. 🙂
Inga,
“There is in my opinion an extremely strong familial element in autoimmune disorders. I suspect that after women have babies, sometimes a fetal cell escapes into the woman’s body, ending up in the thyroid and setting up inflammation and the eventual destruction of the thyroid, just a theory. Some of these fetal cells are even found in the brain years and years later.”
I agree about the strong familial element (we have vitiligo and Hashimoto’s across generations with a couple of other AI issues that aren’t). That is an interesting theory about fetal tissue and inflammation. Found some citations–thanks!
PR,
Yes, I know what adjuvants do in vaccines, from immunology.
Here’s what the CDC says about Aluminum in adjuvants:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/adjuvants.html
What’s happening here, is we’ve strayed into “vaccines scare me, so there must be SOMETHING poisonous in them” territory.
Who (human) has been poisoned by aluminum, used as an adjuvant, in a vaccine?
Have you been reading too much of Tomljenovic? It’s his purpose in life, to say bad things about aluminum in vaccines.
“Unless your body does not have enough of the micronutrients used in detoxification or your body is missing or has a defective gene necessary to conduct detoxification.”
Who has these problems? Which micronutrients could you be missing? Which defective gene?
Is that your situation?
If you are unable to detoxify, you won’t make it long enough to learn to type comments in this thread.
If you’re born without a functioning liver, you either get a transplant, or you’re gone.
As I stated earlier, anti-vax is a religion. The targets are moved, constantly. Conversations go like this:
“vaccines are bad because of x.”
“no, there’s absolutely no proof of that.”
“then vaccines are bad because of y.”
“No proof of that, either.”
“Well, then, vaccines must be bad because of z.”
Show me clinical proof that vaccines are bad for us, that is, that whatever side-effects are observed, are worse than the risk of getting the disease that the vaccine prevents.
There’s a great deal of proof that not getting vaccinated is bad for you.
Does your doctor (a real one, not Rand Paul, not a naturopath or homeopath) agree that you need a different vaccine schedule, because of your autoimmune problems?
Why not go with what your doctor says, get a second opinion?
Speaking of religion . . .
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/feb/05/measles-outbreak-philosphical-exemption-bans
Bob K.,
I am not anti-vaccine, just vaccine-cautious.
“Who (human) has been poisoned by aluminum, used as an adjuvant, in a vaccine? Have you been reading too much of Tomljenovic?”
Guess you didn’t bother to read the 3 other citations that didn’t include this scientist. ASIA is a recognized disorder.
Who has these problems?
A good share of people who eat the standard American diet.
Which micronutrients could you be missing?
The micronutrients were not missing. I was low on magnesium, calcium, zinc, selenium, and probably a few others. Insufficient intake or absorption or both due to extended stressors.
Which defective gene?
http://doccarnahan.blogspot.com/2013/05/mthfr-gene-mutation-whats-big-deal.html
Is that your situation?
I have not had genetic testing.
“If you are unable to detoxify, you won’t make it long enough to learn to type comments in this thread.”
That is only if detox systems are completely not functioning. It is not an on-off switch. If the mitochondria is not functioning optimally due to micronutrient deficiencies (e.g., magnesium), then the larger organ is not going to function optimally.
Bob K.,
Word Press ate my reply. It hasn’t had its breakfast yet. 🙂
“Who (human) has been poisoned by aluminum, used as an adjuvant, in a vaccine?”
I guess you didn’t look at the three additional citations who were not by Tomljenovic.
“Who has these problems?”
Pretty much anyone eating a standard American diet.
“Which micronutrients could you be missing?”
The micronutrients were not missing. I was deficient or low in magnesium, calcium, zinc, and selenium due to insufficient intake or poor absorption due to extended stressors.
“Which defective gene?”
http://doccarnahan.blogspot.com/2013/05/mthfr-gene-mutation-whats-big-deal.html
“Is that your situation?”
I have not had genetic testing.
“If you are unable to detoxify, you won’t make it long enough to learn to type comments in this thread.”
That’s only if the detoxification system is completely not working. It can be functioning poorly due to mitochondrial dysfunction, which needs magnesium, for one to work optimally. If a person is low on magnesium, the mitochondria will not function optimally, and that affects larger systems.
“As I stated earlier, anti-vax is a religion. The targets are moved, constantly. Conversations go like this”
This conversation has not. Please review.
“Show me clinical proof that vaccines are bad for us”
For some people in certain subsets of the population, they are. I have never argued that vaccines are terrible for all people.
“that whatever side-effects are observed, are worse than the risk of getting the disease that the vaccine prevents.”
Getting macrophagic myofaciitis doesn’t sound like much fun, particularly when you consider it will affect the person for the rest of their lives.
“There’s a great deal of proof that not getting vaccinated is bad for you.”
Uh, thanks. That’s why we get vaccinated, albeit on a modified schedule. Are you bothering to read my posts? I’ve said that we get vaccinated.
“Does your doctor agree that you need a different vaccine schedule, because of your autoimmune problems? Why not go with what your doctor says, get a second opinion?”
Yes. I have never said we do not plan to get vaccinated.
swarthmoremom:
what do you think of this? People are saying Hillary is working as an agent for the Muslim Brotherhood. Seems far fetched to me but Huma Abedin apparently has MB ties through her mother, father and brother.
Personaly, I think Elizabeth Warren is the better choice, there is too much duplicity swirling around Hillary. Although I am hoping Dennis Kucinich runs for president. The more I read about that guy, the better I like him. A Warren/Kucinich ticket has my vote, and I dont care who is on top.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/28/hillary-clinton-undercut-on-libya-war-by-pentagon-/print/
Top Pentagon officials and a senior Democrat in Congress so distrusted Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton’s 2011 march to war in Libya that they opened their own diplomatic channels with the Gadhafi regime in an effort to halt the escalating crisis, according to secret audio recordings recovered from Tripoli.
The tapes, reviewed by The Washington Times and authenticated by the participants, chronicle U.S. officials’ unfiltered conversations with Col. Moammar Gadhafi’s son and a top Libyan leader, including criticisms that Mrs. Clinton had developed tunnel vision and led the U.S. into an unnecessary war without adequately weighing the intelligence community’s concerns.
“What’s interesting about all this is, if you listen to Seif Gaddafi’s account, even as they were being bombed they still trusted America, which really says a lot,” said Mr. Kucinich. “It says a lot about how people who are being bombed through the covert involvement or backdoor involvement of the U.S. will still trust the U.S. It’s heart-breaking, really. It really breaks your heart when you see trust that is so cynically manipulated.”
“Top Pentagon officials and a senior Democrat in Congress so distrusted Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton’s 2011 march to war in Libya that they opened their own diplomatic channels with the Gadhafi regime in an effort to halt the escalating crisis, according to secret audio recordings recovered from Tripoli.”
Bron,
If this is true (the Washington Times is run by Syung Young Moon, just sayin’) then those Pentagon officials are guilty of treason. The US Constitution, to which they swore an oath, clearly specifies that civilians control US foreign policy and US Armed Forces.
“Personaly, I think Elizabeth Warren is the better choice, there is too much duplicity swirling around Hillary.”
Yep. I’ve been saying all along she’s unelectable in a general election. Too polarizing.
But Warren? I stepped away from nationals after Obama went with his kill list strategy and refused to prosecute the Bush Administration, but I’d vote for Warren. She’s one of the few who doesn’t seem to be in anyone’s pocket.
swarthmoremom:
“what do you think of this? People are saying Hillary is working as an agent for the Muslim Brotherhood. Seems far fetched to me but Huma Abedin apparently has MB ties through her mother, father and brother.” Another desperate attempt to smear both Hillary and Huma….
Elizabeth Warren has said over and over again that she is not running.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/03/politics/hillary-clinton-republicans-swing-states-quinnipiac-poll/ Electability is not Clinton’s problem.
Smom,
I have a word for polls a year out from an election.
Useless.
However, if Hillary is electable it is for one reason: she is the DNC proffer against an even more unelectable slate of GOP selections (a distinct possibility). Under scrutiny and against a better candidate like Warren, Hillary’s appeal would dwindle rapidly. She’s not change. She’s more of the same bought and sold political whores that both parties have been sending up since Reagan, e.g. her ethics are like those of her husband, a weather vane whose direction is dictated by opportunism and expedience over any kind of concrete principle. I wouldn’t vote for her to be dog catcher (if that were an elected position).
I know we’ll (probably always) disagree on this matter, but that’s okay.
Agreement is not required.
I think we need a Hillary thread. And, to be fair, a Jeb thread.
This thread on vaccinations is very interesting. We have discussed this issue before and, in my opinion, P Rose’s concerns are legitimate. The problem lies in getting those legitimate concerns heard over the din created by the hysterical screams about less government from the religious right.
I’m happy that Elizabeth Warren is serving in the Senate. I think she is doing an important job there speaking out about financial/middle class/working class issues. I’d much prefer that she stay where she is for the time being
Warren is a a better candidate for change but she would get whacked in the swing states by the likes of a Jeb Bush. She would carry MA MD MN CA VT and not too much more.
Maybe SwM could do an intro for a Hillary thread? She is the most qualified.
PR,
Good morning!
Yes, I did read your posts. I know that you get vaccinated. I also know that you spread unfounded rumors about the dangers of vaccination, which doesn’t help anyone.
Now,
“That’s only if the detoxification system is completely not working. It can be functioning poorly due to mitochondrial dysfunction, which needs magnesium, for one to work optimally. If a person is low on magnesium, the mitochondria will not function optimally, and that affects larger systems.”
Did your doctor tell you that your mitochondria were not functioning optimally?
How could your doctor possibly know this? What sort of doctor is this, again?
It’s of interest to me because I did my thesis work on one small part of the electron transport chain, which, you and I know, produces most of your adenosine triphosphate, through the Q-cycle. I studied the b-c1 complex, which, as you know, resides between the double membrane of the mitochondrion. That’s where the proton gradient is established, to power adenosine triphosphate production. But I’m babbling on about stuff you already know, if you know all about mitochondrial dysfunction.
I’ve isolated a whole bunch of mitochondria, and, believe me, your doctor did not take yours out and study them. And that’s the only way you can determine how your mitochondria are working.
blouise, Maybe closer to the primaries….I am overloaded with family matters right now.
Smom,
I’m not saying the timing is right for Warren in 2016, merely stating a preference among potentials. Staying in the Senate and looking at 2020 or 2024 is the smart money move. It allows her time to build her bona fides but it also runs the risk of HRC confounding her later chances for one reason or another but that risk is one that is manageable barring catastrophic failure under an HRC administration. All things being equal though, she’s far superior to Hillary in every way at this time.
Blouise,
I’ve already written two posts about Jeb Bush:
https://flowersforsocrates.com/2014/12/26/jeb-bush-for-president-looking-back-at-the-terri-schiavo-case/
https://flowersforsocrates.com/2014/12/27/jeb-bush-the-hard-core-right-wing-moderate-conservative/
How’d this thread get hijacked into Hilary?
bron,
“what do you think of this? People are saying Hillary is working as an agent for the Muslim Brotherhood. Seems far fetched to me but Huma Abedin apparently has MB ties through her mother, father and brother.”
I think that there are idiots who will say absolutely anything. And do.
It’s a pity, but there it is.
Blouise,
That is a step toward electoral advocacy I’d have to really consider before approving. Everyone having their opinion is one thing, anything that could be considered an FFS official endorsement/condemnation is quite another. It’d have to be carefully crafted.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/05/anti-vaccine-arguments-analyzed-explained_n_6607026.html?utm_hp_ref=science
Hillary brings a tremendous amount of experience to the table and she’s developed a very thick skin. I sincerely believe we should try to put someone in the Oval Office who can hit the ground running. I’m sick to death of these guys who need two years to ramp up and learn the ropes.
(Today I’m going with pithy aphorisms)
Elaine,
Yes, and well done too. I was thinking more along the lines of point counter point to be presented on the same day. I think I was a frustrated newspaper publisher in a former life.
Blouise,
We could do open thread discussions on Hillary and Jeb.
blouise, Probably better to wait until she announces. Bron’s rumors are clearly attempts to drive her out of the race because she clearly out polls all the potential r candidates.
That is a step toward electoral advocacy I’d have to really consider before approving. – Gene
I get that but often advocacy is a great springboard for discussion. As long as the Editor-in-chief makes that clear. And especially when said Editor-in-chief disagrees with the advocate’s position.
Just another experimented … you’re the boss. I’ll abide.
Probably better to wait until she announces. – SwM
I don’t know. We’re a blog. We can jump the gun.
Blouise,
We could do open thread discussions on Hillary and Jeb. – SwM
There ya go! I think that’s what I was envisioning. ( I wasn’t necessarily a good frustrated newspaper publisher in that former life)
Brainstorming!
Sorry … bad type setting. The open thread suggestion was Elaine’s. Damn, can’t figure out a way to blame my Kindle for that one.
The democratic party may be pretty well united in their support for Hillary but the republican party is in no way united behind Jeb. His path to the nomination is much tougher.
SwM,
Usually the case for the second son. 😉
blouise,
“We have discussed this issue before and, in my opinion, P Rose’s concerns are legitimate. The problem lies in getting those legitimate concerns heard over the din created by the hysterical screams about less government from the religious right.”
That seems to be the trouble with so many issues–being heard over the din. Sigh.
Measles Hits Chicago-Area Daycare Center
Reuters
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/05/chicago-measles_n_6623268.html
Excerpt:
CHICAGO, Feb 5 (Reuters) – Five babies at a suburban Chicago daycare center have been diagnosed with measles, according to a report in the Chicago Tribune, citing local health officials.
Bob K.,
“I also know that you spread unfounded rumors about the dangers of vaccination, which doesn’t help anyone.”
Have to disagree with you. PubMed journal articles about ASIA and adjuvants are not rumors. They are interesting hypotheses, and in some cases, documented evidence.
“How could your doctor possibly know this? What sort of doctor is this, again?”
My doctor looks at symptoms as indicators of underlying cellular dysfunction–namely (though not limited to) micronutrient and fatty acid deficiencies due to inadequate diet, stress, etc. She is a functional medicine MD. While I do not go to this clinic, the Cleveland Clinic just opened a Center for Functional Medicine.
“It’s of interest to me because I did my thesis work on one small part of the electron transport chain” Sounds interesting. 🙂
You might enjoy this: http://terrywahls.com/minding-your-mitochondria-dr-terry-wahls-at-tedxiowacity/
“I’ve isolated a whole bunch of mitochondria, and, believe me, your doctor did not take yours out and study them. And that’s the only way you can determine how your mitochondria are working.”
Not so. If you are deficient in magnesium, per a serum test or intracellular testing, then how will your mitochondria have enough magnesium to create the ATP? ATP is not biologically active without magnesium (Mg-ATP). If they aren’t making biologically active ATP, then they aren’t functioning correctly.
Here’s an example regarding mitochondria, Mg, and migraine: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8747836
PR, I can’t say I know much about mitochondrial malfunctioning, but I do know that many people are deficient in Magnesium, per medical literature. I think we’ll be hearing about this as much as we’ve heard about Vitamin D deficiency.
ANTI-VAXXERS ARE AS AMERICAN AS APPLE PIE
BY JONATHAN ALTER
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/05/anti-vaxxers-are-as-american-as-apple-pie.html
Excerpt:
What’s especially troubling is that this flight from reason—a fusion of mindless hippie paranoia and solipsistic neo-libertarianism—comes in an era of great accomplishment by the public-health establishment these self-styled rebels so resent. The United States eradicated measles in 2000 and has been astonishingly successful in its overall vaccination program.
According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in the last 20 years, 2.5 million Americans have been spared from illness by vaccinations and 730,000 from death.
But now measles, which kills about 150,000 a year worldwide, is once again a threat here, too. January brought 102 new cases across 14 states, most linked to an outbreak in Disneyland.
Our infants are at real risk. Every time misinformed parents refuse to vaccinate their school-age children, they are endangering not only their own kids but that cute little baby in the shopping cart at the supermarket who is under age 1 and thus too young to be immunized.
This is not the “personal choice” so loosely invoked by politicians like Sen. Rand Paul (now running for cover by having himself photographed being vaccinated). It’s an attack on a kind of freedom that conservatives don’t like to talk about—the freedom to be healthy and safe.
A Doctor’s Take: Why Measles Vaccination Must Be Mandatory
By Robert Pearl, M.D.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertpearl/2015/02/05/measles-vaccination-must-be-mandatory/
Excerpt:
My father’s sister Mary died from measles when she was 6 years old. Her death haunted my grandparents for the rest of their lives.
She was one of thousands who died each year from measles before there was a vaccine to prevent this life-threatening disease.
Her story has always stayed with me – from my days as a child to my years in medical school. And once again I’m reminded of our family’s loss as the largest U.S. measles outbreak of the 21st century widens its reach in California, where I serve as CEO of the nation’s largest physician group. Our group is responsible for the health of 3.6 million people, and I worry about the risk to many of them.
This past week, public health officials confirmed more than 100 reported cases of measles in the U.S. At least 58 are linked to an outbreak that began at Disneyland in mid-December when someone infected with the measles virus came in contact with others who hadn’t been immunized.
Measles is a highly contagious disease, spreading through airborne particles that can remain infectious for up to two hours.
Thankfully, the latest measles outbreak hasn’t claimed any lives yet. But it might. Beyond providing general medical support, doctors have no effective treatment for the disease once a person has become infected. Individuals who come down with measles experience high fevers and often develop bronchitis, secondary pneumonia, encephalitis or hearing damage.
With the development and broad availability of the measles vaccine in 1963, physicians and public health officials had reason to anticipate this type of tragedy would never happen again. Just 15 years ago, public health officials declared that measles had been eliminated in the United States – a result of unprecedented child vaccination rates. But in the first four weeks of 2015, 102 cases of measles were reported in 14 states.
The Spread Of Measles And Anti-Science
Why are we reading front-page headlines about a disease once declared dead? The answer is a combination of unethical science, unfounded fear and – in some states – a very low bar for opting out of vaccination.
PR,
Thank you for your information on your doctor being in Functional Medicine.
From Wikipedia, “Jeffrey Bland and Susan Bland founded the Institute for Functional Medicine in 1991 as a division of HealthComm.”
I met the Blands back in the 90s. I was interviewing for a job with HealthComm.
Everything is crystal clear to me, now.
No further argument is necessary, or useful.
Bob, you made me curious about the Blands. So I looked them up, yikes. Pseudoscience and homeopathy. No thanks to Functional Medicine, I’ll stick to Evidence Based Medicine.
You got it, Inga. I was unable to stomach the obvious fraud while I was interviewing with the Blands and their acolytes. Both candidate and employer separated very unhappy.
Bland has been fined, and ordered to stop making his health claims, by the federal government.
Bland has been a columnist for HuffPo. I left a polite, non-vulgar comment, after one of his articles, congratulating HuffPo for enlisting an established medical fraud as an author on health matters. My comment was deleted. I have never returned to HuffPo.
The poor, deluded folks who embrace Functional Medicine are indeed sick, but not in the way that they think.
It’s non-science, or, in a shortened form, nonsense. It’s not just pseudoscience, it’s used to separate gullible people from their money. These charlatans are NOT nice people.
You have to go really far in the “alternative medicine” field, for the feds to order you to stop.
In truth, there is no “alternative medicine.” There are treatments that work, which are called “medicine.”
The other stuff is superstition and fraud.
Inga,
OT, but I saw how egregiously you were disrespected on another blog and your privacy was invaded to a degree seldom seen on the blogs.. However, when you indicated you would fight fire with fire, you comment was “disappeared.”
Why are we not surprised?
Feel free to reprise the comment here if you wish. We do not censor appropriate responses to direct insults and threats, as long as the response is justified. Let’s just not take the comment thread too far off into the woods.
Bob K
I’m sure you’re correct about ‘Functional Medicine’. However – how to explain the Cleveland Clinic association?
I’d be interested in hearing about it, Inga. I know nothing about your case, but I know the denizens of that other blog.
Harvey,
I noted that the Cleveland Clinic was involved with Functional Medicine. I just found a Wikipedia entry for it, now. The editors of Wikipedia state:
“This article appears to be written like an advertisement. Please help improve it by rewriting promotional content from a neutral point of view and removing any inappropriate external links. (March 2014)”
That means that even Wikipedia doesn’t think Wikipedia is a reliable source on this topic.
The Center for Functional Medicine’s web page (I ain’t putting links in this comment, you can find it very easily) says:
“The Cleveland Clinic Center for Functional Medicine is a collaboration between Cleveland Clinic and the Institute for Functional Medicine (IFM), led by Mark Hyman, MD, Chairman of IFM, founder of The UltraWellness Center, and New York Times best-selling author.”
From the Wikipedia entry for Functional Medicine, however (sorry, this is a long one, but oh-so telling:
“Jeffrey Bland and Susan Bland founded the Institute for Functional Medicine in 1991 as a division of HealthComm.[23][24] That year, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission said that Jeffrey Bland’s corporations HealthComm and Nu-Day Enterprises had falsely advanced claims that their products could alter metabolism and induce weight loss.[23] The FTC found that Bland and his companies violated that consent order in 1995 by making more exaggerated claims. The UltraClear dietary program was said to provide relief from gastrointestinal problems, inflammatory and immunologic problems, fatigue, food allergies, mercury exposure, kidney disorders, and rheumatoid arthritis. The companies were forced to pay a $45,000 civil penalty.[23]
The Institute for Functional Medicine is chaired by Mark Hyman and consists of roughly 40 faculty members.[25]
The opening of centers for functional medicine at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation and at George Washington University has been described by Gorski as an “unfortunate” example of pseudoscientific quackery infiltrating medical academia.”
So that’s the state-of-the-art for the Institute of Functional Medicine, Mark Hyman, and Jeffrey Bland.
Offhand, I’d explain the situation exactly the way Gorski did.
My reply to Harvey was lost. Can someone dig it out?
Here’s from the Wikipedia entry for Mark Hyman, head of the Institute for Functional Medicine, and lately, of the Cleveland Clinic:
Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch lists Hyman’s 2003 book Ultraprevention: The 6-Week Plan That Will Make You Healthy for Life as one of their nonrecommended books.[17]
In a 2011 article, Hyman asserted a correlation between MMR vaccination and the occurrence of autism and bowel disease.
Cleveland Clinic to open Center for Functional Medicine; Dr. Mark Hyman to be director
http://www.cleveland.com/healthfit/index.ssf/2014/09/cleveland_clinic_to_open_cente.html
Center for Functional Medicine – Cleveland Clinic
Functional medicine is a personalized, systems-oriented model that empowers patients and practitioners to achieve the highest expression of health by working in collaboration to address the underlying causes of disease.
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/services/center-for-functional-medicine
In the release, Clinic CEO Dr. Toby Cosgrove said the new center is “not a departure for Cleveland Clinic, but a continuation of the innovative, holistic approach that we have embraced.” Cosgrove cited the Clinic’s wellness institute, Center for Integrative Medicine, its Chinese herbal therapy clinic and the Center for Personalized Healthcare. – Crains, Cleveland Business 9/16/2014
on 1, February 5, 2015 at 9:37 pmInga
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Schulte
Don’t make allegations reagarding my professionalism as a nurse or my degrees. Or about my role as a nurse who worked the night shift. If you want to attack my nursing skills or credentials be prepared for a scathing retaliatory remark. Im sick of your nasty creepy comments regarding my private life, my education and my professionalism. I will make mincemeat out of you next time you try this.
*********************
Here it is. Darren seems to think this is some sort of physical threat. WTF is JT doing giving this moron the job of blog administrator?!
Cleveland Clinic may see it as a good way to make more money. Draw in those who reject evidence based medicine and embrace homeopathy and they rake in big bucks. I doubt many insurance companies cover this. It’s probably private pay and expensive.
Thanks, Inga.
Ah, yes, Mr. Schulte.
He and I had some intense discussions, before I permanently stopped reading that blog.
I acquired a very strong impression of the depth of his intellect.
I’m happy that you told Schulte this, but I guess he never saw it.
Help!
My long response to Harvey’s question is still not displaying.
I ain’t writing that one, again.
Thanks.
From Clinic site:
“Physician visits are covered by most insurance plans. Coverage for visits with the nutritionist as well as some of the tests is determined by your insurance plan. You will talk to our financial counselor to review your coverage prior to your appointment.”
My friend uses their Chinese herbal therapy clinic and her insurance picks up all costs with very small co-pay.
The Clinic knows how to code as does UH, and Cleveland Metro. UH has a great Acupuncture center in their Wellness campus. (UH is University Hospital Case Medical) Cleveland Metro is great for trauma
By code I mean the codes insurance companies use. My daughter’s neighbor is the general manager of their billing department. I’ll ask him about insurance coverage for this new department. I’m going to bet they had it all worked out long before they actually created the department.
Wow, that’s surprising Blouise. I wonder how they code these therapies. I can see them paying for a nutritionist, that makes sense.
These hospitals are huge and they are constantly building new facilities and taking over existing ones. They are deeply competitive which is great for we, the patients. However one can no longer find an individual doctor out there practicing on his/her own. Everybody belongs to an affiliated group.
I believe the Clinic’s main campus on Euclid used to have one dedicated zip code. Now it’s three.
I, personally, prefer UH which has always been a teaching hospital and the individualized care reflects that philosophy. The history of the institutions is interesting. UH was first and the Clinic was originally just a few UH doctors who opened a small office away from the hospital. That’s why they’re so close to each other on the same street.
Nurses prefer UH. At UH, the nurse is the patient’s advocate and they actively fulfill that role.
The University hospitals are usually better. Being the patient’s advocate in private hospitals can get a nurse in hot water, I know first hand.
Bob,
Based on comments dropped here and there, the dynamic duo monitors FFS. If Paul S. did not see Inga’s reply over there, maybe he will see it here.
Chuck,
I think you mean the dynamic dodos.
Inga,
No doubt Darren’s Gestapo reaction to your act of self-defense is perfectly in line with Turley’s unstated but nonetheless apparent policy of some animals being more equal than others. FWIW, I’ve gotten multiple reports that he is now engaging in mass deletions of comments and particularly those that take the usual suspects or their witless accomplices to task. This to my mind just affirms the reasoning behind the policy of this blog, why I left in the first place and informs why the majority of Turley’s guest bloggers that helped him win that ABA Hall of Fame award (we were not for nothing mentioned in the blurb that went with that nomination) have either left completely or reduced their participation there.
We may not have his numbers yet, but we’re growing at a pretty good pace and his audience is shrinking according to Alexa. While the prostitution of television may always keep his numbers higher than ours, that in no way nullifies the evidence of the trends. Anyone paying attention to what goes on there realizes quite quickly that for all his high minded talk about freedom of speech, Jon is clearly in favor of an agenda that isn’t about free speech nor any of the other ideals he claims to value but especially when a dollar is to be made or favor gained by championing what are the distorted corporatist version of said ideals.
If he even knows, I wonder what Olbermann thinks of his former guest’s sea change. He at least, as judged by his actions subsequent to MSNBC, seems to have some actual principles he holds above personal gain. I am a curious creature though, even though such knowledge would ultimately just feed that curiosity for its own sake.
I doubt he’ll be winning any blog awards again. What a shame to see his blog has fallen so, but you reap what you sow. As for Darren, eh, not worth delaying my first cup of coffee over.
Does anyone know if there are any reported measles case(s) with adults since this outbreak took hold?
Carterbo,
Although I didn’t see any specifics by age on the Disneyland outbreak, it appears that there have been a number of adults have been infected this year.
http://pediatrics.about.com/od/measles/a/measles-outbreaks.htm
I also saw an article about the largest outbreak in recent history was last year when there was an outbreak in an Ohio Amish community that resulted in 383 infections. Since the initial exposure happened on a missionary trip to the Philippines, it is probably safe to assume some of the infected were adults.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/05/amish-measles-outbreak_n_6622742.html
Maybe someone else has better numbers on the Disney outbreak.
States Rush To Debate New Vaccine Laws As Measles Outbreak Spreads
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/vaccine-legislation-united-states
State With Lowest Rate Of Vaccinated Kids Proposes Bill To Make It Even Worse
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015/02/05/3619833/colorado-vaccine-parents-rights/
Excerpt:
As the United States grapples with a widespread measles outbreak that originated from an unvaccinated woman’s visit to Disneyland, lawmakers have started to discuss potential policies that could prevent the future spread of infectious diseases. California lawmakers, for instance, have introduced a measure that would make it harder to parents to opt out their kids from recommended vaccines.
But other states are taking the opposite approach. Colorado — which has the highest rate of schoolchildren who have not been immunized in line with federal guidelines — is proposing a measure that would underline parents’ rights to turn down vaccines.
According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), just 82 percent of children in Colorado have gotten the two-dose vaccine that protects against measles. That’s far below the national average of 95 percent, as well as below the threshold needed to achieve herd immunity, which hovers around 94 percent. And certain parts of the state are even worse. Some school districts in Western Colorado have undervaccination rates five times higher than the state average.
“We are going to have a large outbreak of measles,” Dr. Edwin J. Asturias, a pediatrician with the Colorado School of Public Health and Children’s Hospital Colorado, told the Denver Post this week. “For almost a decade we have been accumulating people without protection. We are like a forest waiting to catch fire.”
“Let the dead bury the dead this time, Mr. Finch. Let the dead bury the dead.” – To Kill a Mockingbird
(That’s my opinion on that other place.)
Thanks for the info, Gene. It’s very concerning when you have a child who hasn’t received all vaccinations necessary then on top of that living in close proximity to Disneyland. My spouse was alerted to the fact that one of the persons who caught the virus at Disneyland, shopped in the supermarket we attend in early Jan. so that just raised the concern level even higher. Fortunately we didn’t shop that day but it appears with an adult infected, there can be harm to a wide swath of people.
Measles: Perilous but Preventable
By DENISE GRADY FEBRUARY 2, 2015
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/02/measles-perilous-but-preventable/?_r=0
Excerpt:
Measles has been spreading in the United States at a rate that worries health officials, with 102 cases so far this year in at least 14 states.
Most infections are linked to an outbreak that began in Disneyland in December, almost certainly started by someone who brought the disease in from another country. A “smattering” of other imported cases have also occurred, according to Dr. Anne Schuchat, the director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Measles was eliminated from the United States in 2000, meaning that the infection no longer originates here. But worldwide, there are still about 20 million cases a year; in 2013, about 145,700 people died of measles. Travelers can bring the virus into the United States and transmit it to people who have not been vaccinated.
Measles spreads through the air and is among the most contagious of all viruses; in past epidemics, it was not uncommon for one patient to infect 20 others. Some 90 percent of people exposed will get sick (unless they are immune because they have had measles already or have been vaccinated). The virus can hang suspended in the air for several hours, so it is possible to catch measles just by walking into a room where an infected person has recently spent time. Inhaling a tiny amount of viral particles is enough to cause illness.
The disease is cause for particular concern because it can have severe complications, including pneumonia and encephalitis, which can be fatal. Those who survive encephalitis can wind up with brain damage. Measles can also cause deafness. And even without complications, the virus makes children very sick, with high fevers, a rash and sore eyes. Painful ear infections are also common…
Q. Has the United States been particularly hard-hit?
A. Many relatively wealthy countries are having worse outbreaks. Virtually all of continental Europe has been undergoing a large outbreak since 2008, with more than 30,000 cases in several years.
France, which gets more tourists than any other country, had 15,000 measles cases in 2013, with at least six deaths. About 95 percent of the cases were in people who had never been vaccinated or had not had both recommended doses.
In the United States, vulnerable communities have had outbreaks in the last few years, including Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn and the Amish in Ohio. But vaccination rates are also relatively low in some wealthy, liberal neighborhoods. The Seattle suburb of Vashon Island is believed to have the lowest vaccination rates of any health district in the country.
Who is most at risk of becoming seriously ill from measles?
Babies and young children who have not been vaccinated are most vulnerable, and most at risk for dangerous complications.
“Even in developed countries like the U.S., for every thousand children who get measles, one to three of them die despite the best treatment,” Dr. Schuchat said during a news teleconference last week. In the United States from 2001 to 2013, 28 percent of young children with measles needed to be treated in the hospital.
In pregnant women who have never been immunized or never had measles, the disease increases the chance of premature labor, miscarriage and having a baby with a low birthweight. People with leukemia and other diseases that weaken the immune system are also at risk of severe illness from measles.
The best protection for high-risk people, Dr. Schuchat said, is a high rate of vaccination in everyone else, so the disease cannot gain a foothold and start spreading.
I remember photo shoots, in national magazines, of ‘kissing parties,’ in which parents would bring their children in kissing contact with kids infected with measles and chicken pox. The prevailing wisdom was to get these things over in childhood, because measles, in particular, could cause problems in pregnant women.
No vaccines for those diseases, then.
Now, those of us who had chicken pox need to get vaccinated for shingles. The gift that keeps on giving.
Blouise,
I tend to agree about that other site. I’ve had some ask me why I haven’t “gone to war” over there in the comments sections, but the simple answer is I’ve got better things to do with my time and I really don’t have to do anything to aid in the destruction of that place as it is self-destructing quite nicely all on its own. All the good conversation and equal treatment that place once had is now found here. That doesn’t preclude a bit of schadenfreude every so often though.
“I’ve had some ask me why I haven’t “gone to war” over there in the comments sections, but the simple answer is I’ve got better things to do with my time”
Gene,
And the problem is that as formidable weapons as you bring to any debate, they are negated by the policy of deleting comments. As I’ve said before I don’t go there, but do here of its doings from other sources. What interested me above was your comment above on how Turley owes much to us “guest bloggers” for his success. I think that there is truth in that, but it doesn’t give the whole picture. Before most of us here were GB’s at Turley’s, we were the leaders in comments and debate. It was people like Mark Esposito, Larry Rafferty, Bob Stone, Patty C., Anonymously Yours, and Jill who raised the level of debate before I arrived. For the most part though it was a men’s affair until Elaine, SwM and Blouise became regulars and then RIL took off. That “Green Fellow” also had a large role to play. There was of course David “Nal” Drumm who began to help Turley with some of the administrative stuff and then who as a Guest Blogger innovated the use of song videos and puzzles. My Song for Saturday is a direct copy of his lead. As we did more and more, Jonny did less, paying more attention to his public persona. His posts became more or less perfunctory, except when he was writing articles for places like USA Today, or other OpEd’s, which of course enhanced his public profile…….And then curiously came Nick and his fellow travelers and our guy Jon threw us under the bus. With no proof, I speculate that FOX offered him more compensation than did MSNBC and “idealism” had little to do with it. Thus is it ever for people who see themselves as legends in their own mind.
“.And then curiously came Nick and his fellow travelers and our guy Jon threw us under the bus.”
I still read and occasionally comment over there. I would love to see an organization chart so we could know who is actually commenting and who is in administration.
What drew me to RIL years ago, no longer exists at that blog. It’s sad to see what it has come to. One cannot have the kinds of intelligent, thought-provoking discussions there these days as we had in the past. So it goes. Like Gene, I feel I have better ways to spend my time than arguing with ideologue Neanderthals.
Do You Live in a State With Low Vaccination Rates?
In most areas, more than 90 percent of children are immunized. But not everywhere.
—By AJ Vicens and Gabrielle Canon | Thu Feb. 5, 2015
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/02/mapping-measles-vaccine-coverage-around-the-country
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/opinion/how-to-handle-the-vaccine-skeptics.html?emc=edit_ty_20150206&nl=opinion&nlid=70263902&_r=0
For epidemiologists like me, eliminating exemptions may seem satisfying, but it is not the wisest policy for protecting kids. Instead, we should borrow a concept from behavioral economics, and use administrative rules and procedures to “nudge” parents to immunize their kids, rather than trying to castigate or penalize these parents.
Well, I’m sure the Founding Fathers of the Greatest Nation in the World weren’t into vaccinating their kids, so why should I, right?
Wrong.
Ben Franklin:
“In 1736 I lost one of my sons, a fine boy of four years old, by the small-pox, taken in the common way. I long regretted bitterly, and still regret that I had not given it to him by inoculation. This I mention for the sake of parents who omit that operation, on the supposition that they should never forgive themselves if the child died under it; my example showing that the regret may be the same either way, and that, therefore, the safer should be chosen.”
-from his autobiography
I felt deep sadness, typing this. Not sure why.
Many thanks to everyone for the feedback concerning Cleveland Clinic – an outfit that I had thought was one of the premier institutions that practiced medicine. I guess I shouldn’t have been so gobsmacked that the CC would embrace an association with functional medicine. Money wins every time, eh? I hope they suffer some terrible PR problems given Mark Hyman’s position on vaccines.
bouise, I’m all for competition but very leery when the strategy is to gobble up the next hospital. It’s is particularly heinous when the one doing the gobbling is a Catholic hospital. Bye-bye sane reproductive health for women.
bron
We’re no longer capable of ‘nudging’ people to vaccinate. We’ve embraced the ‘crazy’ but have changed the name – it’s called Freeeedom.
Just heard that a Chicago daycare center was shut down because five children came down with the measles. There are so many babies under the age of one in daycare because their moms must work. The babies under age one are now at an increased risk, because of some crazy ideas about vaccines. That really infuriates me. My 9 month old grandson is in daycare five days a week and Chicago is wayyyyy too close.
Check out the Mother Jones link that I posted at 1:47pm to check out the vaccination rate in Wisconsin.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/26/1234055/-Anti-vaccine-megachurch-hit-with-measles-epidemic-now-offering-free-vaccinations?detail=email Large fundamentalist mega church out of Fort Worth, Tx……..
Elaine, it’s middle of the road. Still enough unvaccinated kids to infect others and make me worry. Damn it all.
SWM, yeah now they see they aren’t immune to disease because they are such good Christians.
bouise, I’m all for competition but very leery when the strategy is to gobble up the next hospital. It’s is particularly heinous when the one doing the gobbling is a Catholic hospital. Bye-bye sane reproductive health for women. – Harvey
I don’t know what goes on in your neck of the woods but here it was UH that gobbled up the Catholic Hospitals and the Clinic gobbled up the Congregationalism Hospital. I’d have to look up who got the Lutheran one but I think you’ve got the picture.
http://www.nationalmemo.com/film-review-vaccine/
Film review “Paralyzing Fear: The Story of Polio in America”. It’s streaming on Amazon. Worth watching.
And Harvey, if you have a really serious health problem, the Clinic, UH, and Cleveland Metro are where you want to be. Between those three institutions, every medical break through and treatment option in the world are at your doctor’s fingertips. The area is like the United Nations of medicine. Don’t like the idea of functional medicine, fine. Choose from hundreds of other approaches. My husband’s treatment team is composed of doctors from all three institutions and he has been in all three facilities. Together they saved the life of a dying man and devised a treatment program composed of surgery, drugs, nutician, herbs, exercise and, wait for it … yoga … that has given him a quality of life we never expected. Out of pocket expense was less than a thousand dollars.
And … they all have really nice art work on the walls, and in the corridors, and in the meditation gardens, and in the elevators, and in the entryways. However, the food sucks no matter where you go. But, on the other hand, every institution has great valet service. Silly? Not when a loved one is dying and all you’ve got to hang onto is hope. That little fountain in that garden off M building is a peaceful place to sit. That valet guy suspends the frustration of the parking garage. And that Wellness counselor holding your hand as your loved one goes under the knife makes up for the really bad cup of coffee you got in the cafeteria.
“Center for Functional Medicine – Cleveland Clinic
Functional medicine is a personalized, systems-oriented model that empowers patients and practitioners to achieve the highest expression of health by working in collaboration to address the underlying causes of disease.”
Thank you, blouise for posting this. It would be unfortunate if Bob K.’s one experience maligned Functional Medicine. My experience as been quite positive, and, no, I am not going to talk about homeopathy.
Prior to seeing my functional medicine MD after the birth of my third child, I had rosacea, acne, recurrent UTIs, recurrent conjunctivitis, dry eyes, bouts of strep throat, fatigue, difficulty sleeping, forgetfulness, a phlectenule, my hair was falling out, and blepharitis, among other issues. The eight or so MDs, including three dermatologists and an ophthamologist, all gave me standard medicine or advice. Antibiotics and creams for the rosacea, antibiotics and eye drops for the infections and dry eyes. I was told that I’d have to wash my eyes for the rest of my life to deal with the blepharitis.
The functional medicine doctor asked me about all my symptoms, ordered bloodwork, hormone analysis, and IgE and IgG tests and used this information to develop an individualized prescription. She was able to do what at least eight doctors over the course of as many years could not do. I now feel good.
Rosacea and acne—gone. Recurrent and frequent infections—gone. Dry eyes and blepharitis—gone. I sleep well and I feel good. All the other doctors also missed that I have Hashimoto’s thyroiditis. When I was first diagnosed, my autoantibody numbers were over 450, now they are under 20.
I am not the only one. Dr. Terry Wahls, internal medicine doctor at the University of Iowa who has MS, also supports and is now a functional medicine doctor. She went to Cleveland Clinic for MS treatments and had cutting-edge therapies but nonetheless declined to the point of needing a tilt-recline wheelchair. She changed her diet, exercise regimen, and other therapies, and is now walking and riding her bike. She is now conducting trials to see if her results with herself can be replicated in other people with MS. If you’d like to hear her story, here is a short version: http://terrywahls.com/minding-your-mitochondria-dr-terry-wahls-at-tedxiowacity/
Gene,
Exactly.
blouise,
“devised a treatment program composed of surgery, drugs, nutician, herbs, exercise and, wait for it … yoga … that has given him a quality of life we never expected.”
Sounds similar to my treatment, but without the surgery. 🙂 Glad your husband got such outstanding care!
PR,
Doctors love me cause I keep an open mind to every treatment option. Also, I don’t idolize them. For instance, cardiologists are electricians or plumbers or mechanics. I don’t tolerate rock stars and tell them so. The only ones I treat with any deference are nurses. They are my partners in crime in that they allow me to order food in for my husband and show me his chart so that I may prepare intelligent questions for rounds. (They also know which doctors are full of shit.)
Years ago, I had a physical condition that caused me a great deal of pain and discomfort. My doctor–whom I trust–had me take all kinds of tests to see if my problem could be diagnosed. Doctors couldn’t find anything wrong with me. My doctor and a specialist thought that my problem might be related to adhesions. At one point, my problem got so bad that it truly affected my quality of life. That’s when I decided to try acupuncture. After several treatments and an herbal remedy, I felt better. I still have flare-ups now and then–but a couple of treatments usually sets me straight again.
I’m most certainly not anti-science–but I don’t think “western” medicine has all the answers. I believe it’s important to take into account an individual’s diet, life stresses, mental health issues–and the fact that different people’s bodies may react differently to the same treatment.
My acupuncturist now works three days a week at a hospital here. He treats patients at the cancer center there for the side effects caused by cancer treatments and various symptoms associated with cancer.
I have great respect for dedicated doctors. My late brother-in-law was a cardiopulmonary specialist and emergency room doctor. He was a fantastic diagnostician who helped many of our friends and family members.
Blouise,
I think we need both good nurses AND good doctors. I want a topnotch surgeon when I’m going under the knife. About twenty years ago, I was in the hospital for major surgery. I told the nurse who was with me prior to my surgery that I didn’t want to be “put under” until I saw my doctor. She leaned over and whispered in my ear, “I don’t blame you.”
I think it’s also of great import to be our own advocates. After all, who knows YOUR body better than YOU?
Elaine,
I never retain a new doctor without first getting favorable recommendations from two nurses. My mother was a nurse. All her friends were nurses. I learned early on. It’s also useful to find out who doctors choose as their personal physicians and which institutions they use for their family’s care. I know two physicians who carry written instructions that if they require emergency care, they are to be taken to Metro Health. Neither of them are affiliated with Metro but their Emergency Room is superb.
Acupuncture was the best coarse of treatment when my hands developed tendon problems (cello playing). Once the pain was under control, other measures could be introduced. Western medicine does not have all the answers … I agree.
History of Anti-vaccination Movements
The Historical Medical Library of The College of Physicians of Philadelphia
http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/history-anti-vaccination-movements
Excerpt:
Health and medical scholars have described vaccination as one of the top ten achievements of public health in the 20th century.[1] Yet, opposition to vaccination has existed as long as vaccination itself[2] (indeed, the pre-vaccination practice of variolation came under criticism as well: see this timeline entry for details). Critics of vaccination have taken a variety of positions, including opposition to the smallpox vaccine in England and the United States in the mid to late 1800s, and the resulting anti-vaccination leagues; as well as more recent vaccination controversies such as those surrounding the safety and efficacy of the diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis (DTP) immunization, the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine, and the use of a mercury-containing preservative called thimerosal.
“In our own day, a similar fate awaited the beneficent discovery of Dr. Jenner. That vaccination could abate the virulence of, or preserve from, the smallpox, was quite incredible; none but a cheat and a quack could assert it: but that the introduction of the vaccine matter into the human frame could endow men with the qualities of a cow, was quite probable. Many of the poorer people actually dreaded that their children would grow hairy and horned as cattle, if they suffered them to be vaccinated.” — MEMOIRS OF EXTRAORDINARY POPULAR DELUSIONS by Charles Mackay (1841)
The cow connection explained:
Jenner and Smallpox
Like any other doctor of the time, Edward Jenner carried out variolation to protect his patients from smallpox. However, from the early days of his career Edward Jenner had been intrigued by country-lore which said that people who caught cowpox from their cows could not catch smallpox. This knowledge, his own experience of variolation as a boy, and of the risks that accompanied variolation, led him to undertake the most important research of his life.
Cowpox
Cowpox is a mild viral infection of cows. It causes a few weeping spots (pocks) on the udders, but little discomfort. Milkmaids occasionally caught cowpox from the cows. Although they felt rather off-colour for a few days and developed a small number of pocks (usually on the hand), the disease did not really trouble them.
The First Vaccination
A dairymaid, Sarah Nelmes, consulted Jenner in 1796 about a rash on her hand (pictured above). He diagnosed cowpox rather than smallpox. Sarah confirmed that one of her cows, a Gloucester cow called Blossom, had recently had cowpox. Edward Jenner realised that this was his opportunity to test the protective properties of cowpox by giving it to someone who had not yet suffered smallpox.
He chose James Phipps, the eight-year old son of his gardener. On 14th May, he made a few scratches on one of James’ arms and rubbed into them some material from one of the pocks on Sarah’s hand. A few days later, James became mildly ill with cowpox, but was well again a week later. So Jenner knew that cowpox could pass from person to person as well as from cow to person.
The next step was to test whether the cowpox would now protect James from smallpox. On 1st July, Jenner variolated the boy. As Jenner anticipated, and undoubtedly to his great relief, James did not develop smallpox on this occasion nor on the many subsequent occasions when his immunity was tested again.
http://www.jennermuseum.com/vaccination.html
In rare lucid moment, Ben Carson tells Republicans not to pander to anti-vaccination hysteria
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/in-rare-lucid-moment-ben-carson-tells-republicans-not-to-pander-to-anti-vaccination-hysteria/
Excerpt:
Possible 2016 Republican presidential hopeful Ben Carson waded into the debate over vaccines on Sunday by telling Fox News Sunday host Chris Wallace that it’s inappropriate to frame vaccinations and the resurgence of measles as a partisan issue.
As the nation grapples with its historic measles outbreak, potential presidential candidates weighed in this week, with both New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie (R) and Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) taking heat for appearing to pander to anti-vaccination hysteria.
On Sunday, Carson — a former pediatric neurosurgeon — told Wallace, “What we really have to look at is that we’ve learned a lot about immunology and the science behind vaccinations. And we’ve made tremendous progress in eliminating some devastating diseases over the decades.”
“What happened a few years ago,” continued Carson, “is that information was disseminated inappropriately about terrible side effects from vaccinations. All of that was carefully investigated and debunked.”
There are still people who are “legitimately concerned,” he said, but they just need to be educated. There are minuscule risks associated with vaccines, yes, but “you have to look at the overall good.”
What amazes me of this whole debate is the current human propensity to not learn from what has preceded us. In stronger terms, it is a current vogue to claim individualism over our knowledge as a species.
We all stand on the shoulders of giants; knowledge gained from millennia past is easily accessible, yet few take the time.
The standard model of particle physics is complete with the validation of the Higgs boson, yet there is much to learn on this front. We landed a probe on a fucking comet and are able to receive data from said; we can peer into the deep past with all manner of spectrum — we are awash with information yet most ignore the inherent knowledge of, and from, such accomplishments.
Tribalism sadly rules. At the very moment of stupendous human accomplishments many feel their superstitions are as valid as the technology used to spout them, ignoring the obvious contradiction.
gbk: “Tribalism sadly rules. At the very moment of stupendous human accomplishments many feel their superstitions are as valid as the technology used to spout them, ignoring the obvious contradiction.”
It seems to be getting worse as of late.
“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.” — Charles Mackay
An easily accessible lesson in synthesis:
Bob:
“Do not look where you fell, but where you slipped.” African proverb.
Translated, it would be something like this:
“If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn’t, it isn’t so.” Lewis Carroll: Through The Looking Glass.